Follow-Up Answers from the interview with FFXIV Producer Hiromichi Tanaka

[Correction]

Point being is that no MMO to date is exactly overflowing with new content for the type of player who pushes themselves to the extreme to clear all content before anybody else. Accusing casuals for ruining your fun because suddenly your internet hobby doesn't consume more than a few hours of your week is a feeble way to properly judge the content density.

[Mistress Stowastiq]

I think they have done a pretty good job with consistently mentioning that there will be play dedicated to casual players but also hardcore players. It is practically mentioned in every interview.
As for Wow's customer base, I think SE would have included some kind of major PVP in XIV if they were attempting to be competitive in that market.

[Kaylia]

Point being is that no MMO to date is exactly overflowing with new content for the type of player who pushes themselves to the extreme to clear all content before anybody else. Accusing casuals for ruining your fun because suddenly your internet hobby doesn't consume more than a few hours of your week is a feeble way to properly judge the content density.

I know and I agree with you, I just wanted to bitch about retarded drop rate.

[Celeras]

Point being is that no MMO to date is exactly overflowing with new content for the type of player who pushes themselves to the extreme to clear all content before anybody else. Accusing casuals for ruining your fun because suddenly your internet hobby doesn't consume more than a few hours of your week is a feeble way to properly judge the content density.

How exactly is the time it takes to complete a feeble way to judge the content density, that IS the content density.

[Rokku]

How exactly is the time it takes to complete a feeble way to judge the content density, that IS the content density.

So you're saying something like AV is good and dense content because of the time that players have invested in him?

[dejet]

I disagree entirely. If SE has any hope of being successful they need to understand that not every person that wants to be challenged by an MMO is a shut-in that has 8-12 hours a day to devote to sitting around waiting to claim a king spawn.

The point people are trying to make is that a game doesn't need to be murderously hard to be challenging or fun, nor does it need to eat up huge blocks of time to play. There is a middle ground, and if SE wants to be successful they need to cater to it. Although I'll agree that the groups that would play FFXIV are probably, in the majority, not people that would be playing WoW.

They did this in the end of the game, FFXI has a ton of crap that you can log on for 30min and get done now.

ZNM can be done in small groups of 6. Farming can be done at any time. It just came to late in the life of the game, same goes for odin. 30min twice a week. limbus was by far the best system I think they added to the game. Give or take 1hr of time twice a week. Odin was a dd to it to get people away from kings, but people where to set in their ways to leave kings, a shot at the same gear twice as much!? NO WAY!

I hate AV just because it sucks, but we are starting to get closer to its death.(slow as fuck but we are) I think it is just a tad to strong, having a mob in the game that only a few people can kill is not a bad thing. PW as people have said is just fine how it is. AV is still a tad to strong I think.

Mind you the only thing to do once you've cleared all FFXI content is...merit.

this did make me lol a little. avg exp pt is like 25k/hr now.

I have over 400 merits with my jobs. thats 160 hrs of merits at that rate now anyways.
if you only camped on king thats only about 60 days of camping kings, people have done 5-6 years of king camping >.> just and fyi for your math. forget salv like the guy said after. HNM and namis take up way more time 3hrs of namis twice a week? 6hrs a week thats only about 13 weeks of namis again people have spent way more time then that.

just a little math for you.

[Rokku]

I'm well aware of what systems are in place in FFXI lol, I didn't quit that long ago.

My comment was directed at the notion that time spent somehow represents depth of content.

[Correction]

How exactly is the time it takes to complete a feeble way to judge the content density, that IS the content density.

It's a matter of perspective. Put a Ferrari through a 250 mile race then run a minivan through the same race and the Ferrari driver is bound to get bored waiting for the minivan driver. 'DAMN YOU MINIVAN THIS IS WHY THE CONTENT IS SO BORING FUCK CASUALS.' Players with all the resources/time they need on hand 7 days a week should not blame casuals without it when some the content only takes them a minimum of time to complete. When you judge density based on those with extreme amounts of free time and high levels of gear you're going to get an unrealistic answer. Treating that answer as gospel is feeble.

[Kilhart]

I think it won't be out until 2014!

Since we are just pulling numbers out of our ass...

FFXIV is actually a codename for the LHC and will be released in 2012. As the world ends we'll a server message apologizing for the inconvenience.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

It's a matter of perspective. Put a Ferrari through a 250 mile race then run a minivan through the same race and the Ferrari driver is bound to get bored waiting for the minivan driver. 'DAMN YOU MINIVAN THIS IS WHY THE CONTENT IS SO BORING FUCK CASUALS.' Players with all the resources/time they need on hand 7 days a week should not blame casuals without it when some the content only takes them a minimum of time to complete. When you judge density based on those with extreme amounts of free time and high levels of gear you're going to get an unrealistic answer. Treating that answer as gospel is feeble.

I think if anyone else tries to argue with this point they need a tire iron cannon'd into their peehole.

[Celeras]

I think if anyone else tries to argue with this point they need a tire iron cannon'd into their peehole.

Get it ready then, because it was a terrible analogy. Nobodies(at least not me) talking about completing a 250 mile race faster than others. The point I was trying to make was that, using your words, the races were being designed as trips around the block and banking on the fact that the majority of the competitors didn't care enough to get to the starting line when the gun fired.

Maybe we were just talking about different things though.

[Correction]

Again, you need perspective. If you are at the bleeding edge of the progression curve, then you are blasting your way through every new boss on a tuesday or wednesday night tops, and through hardmode bosses in maybe a week on the current progression schedule in WoW. It is not designed to put up a months-long barrier for those types of players, but that is not the same as a trip around the block.

This has been true since TBC. Folks slightly behind the progression curve can take months to clear the exact same content. There are still servers who haven't killed Anub Heroic10 yet and he's been out nearly two months. If you average that out it looks like a pretty healthy content density to me.

The other extreme is to put up challenges that are so difficult and time-consuming that only a few dozen people out of millions can complete it. WoW has done this...once? (scepter quest) FFXI has done this twice, and continues to keep at least one of those barriers nice and high. This to me does not represent good content density, if we're talking about the longevity of difficult content here.

To say that you prefer a model where only a roomful of people can claim the pinnacle because they put in the time then god help me I hope the designers of FFXIV aren't listening to you.

[Conformity]

I think if anyone else tries to argue with this point they need a tire iron cannon'd into their peehole.

Predictable Trolling.

[Celeras]

The other extreme is to put up challenges that are so difficult and time-consuming that only a few dozen people out of millions can complete it. WoW has done this...once? (scepter quest) FFXI has done this twice, and continues to keep at least one of those barriers nice and high. This to me does not represent good content density, if we're talking about the longevity of difficult content here.

To say that you prefer a model where only a roomful of people can claim the pinnacle because they put in the time then god help me I hope the designers of FFXIV aren't listening to you.

While I see no problem with that kind of thing being in the game to appeal to the top, it would be pretty silly to make that the main focus of content. In my eyes though, the relic/legendary grinds are always welcome if for nothing else than setting the bar for unattainable and giving you something to oogle.

If you are at the bleeding edge of the progression curve, then you are blasting your way through every new boss on a tuesday or wednesday night tops, and through hardmode bosses in maybe a week on the current progression schedule in WoW. It is not designed to put up a months-long barrier for those types of players, but that is not the same as a trip around the block.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think you're looking at the same content as I am. WOTLK was released with 3 endgame raids, one of which being a rehashed Naxx and the other two being single boss instances. You could clear the entirety of that in 3 hours. Trade channel pugs could clear it all in a single day.

Were there downy casual guilds who were stuck on some of these encounters for months? I wouldn't doubt it at all. But the problems occur when the MAJORITY of the playerbase can do it with ease, which is where WoW has been at for over a year. And considering that this same playerbase in WoW is by and large way more casual than the playerbase in other games like FFXI.. that's saying a lot.

I feel like I'm getting into an anti-WoW zone, which isn't my intention. Just using it as an example for the design philosophies I want to see in XIV, which I think should be crystal clear at this point.

[BRP]

The problem with MMOs, both FFXI and WoW, has nothing to do with difficulty. In fact, the lack of difficulty is a sign of what makes them so sub-par. They are both played in the same retarded fashion despite any sort of difference in grind(non-difficulty) and filler they might contain.

There is nothing wrong with speeding through content. It is only natural really. What doesn't make sense is that people continue to play(well, grind) after they've done everything new. What is sensible is to stop playing after the fun has ran out. This doesn't mean quit entirely, but at least pause until the update(aka sequel.)

Very few do this because it would mean that you wouldn't grind for precious and shiny stat bonuses. On the bright side, because of the way FFXI is set up, playing in the sensible way won't put you at a large disadvantage on a lot of content released from late CoP and on. (Actually, the only barrier is finding like-minded people.)

Trying to find a point where grinding appeals to both "casual" and "hardcore" is silly. Grinding never makes for a good game. FFXI and WoW and whatever else would be far superior games if you didn't need to grind anything ever. That means even less "gear-progression", pushing FFXI and WoW away from WoW's formula. "/item get D. Ring" and it is yours. Of course, these games would not be nearly as successful because they would lose their "casuals" and "hardcores" grinders to some other slave simulation. If anyone else remained it would be decided on the game's battle system and content.

FFXIV is appealing because the combat system looks deeper than FFXI. If they don't botch it by adding Colibris, Kraken Clubs, Samurai-buffs, and etc it might even be a good game. This is with or without grind. Hopefully minimal grind. (These type of commercial games will never be as good as to have no grind, for reasons explained above.)

To say that you prefer a model where only a roomful of people can claim the pinnacle because they put in the time then god help me I hope the designers of FFXIV aren't listening to you.

This cannot be avoided (in good games.) What matters is what is it that prevents people from reaching the pinnacle. If it is the game's complexity, then bravo.

[Kawfee]

I agree 100% with BRP's above post. There are many games out there that involve little to no progression that keep people coming back for years; look at other genre games like Starcraft, Counterstrike/TeamFortress/RandomFPS, DOTA, Tekken/Fighting Games. People play them because the gameplay is so good that the replayability is near endless. They don't require you to grind, they prevent you with dynamic, competitive challenges that are unique and challenging even in short time spans.

An MMO should be an extension of that principle, presenting players with a constantly updated set of dynamic challenges that test player skill (skill meaning things like reaction time, tactical thinking, organization, etc.) not player endurance.

[Correction]

Starcraft etc. pit one player's skill/reflexes against the skill/reflexes of other human beings, and there is progression (unless you're bad) because you are literally improving/maturing your own skill over time. Mastering an effectively player vs. AI encounter doesn't provide the same progression because in the end most encounter designs are 100% solvable, even with RNG emergencies that force you to use that situational item/cast that situational spell for when shit happens.

Starcraft/Counterstrike is poker to an MMO's Tic Tac Toe

[Celeras]

I agree 100% with BRP's above post. There are many games out there that involve little to no progression that keep people coming back for years; look at other genre games like Starcraft, Counterstrike/TeamFortress/RandomFPS, DOTA, Tekken/Fighting Games. People play them because the gameplay is so good that the replayability is near endless. They don't require you to grind, they prevent you with dynamic, competitive challenges that are unique and challenging even in short time spans.

An MMO should be an extension of that principle, presenting players with a constantly updated set of dynamic challenges that test player skill (skill meaning things like reaction time, tactical thinking, organization, etc.) not player endurance.

It's a nice thought, but look at your examples. They're all games that pit you against other people.. you keep coming back because its a different competitive experience each and every match.

Its a different ballgame when you're talking about scripted encounters and a monthly subscription. No matter how complex something is, there will be players who can beat it. And if its all complex and short, thats no better than long and easy(or fking easy and short) as its just another group of players that will become bored and won't renew their subscriptions. Thats why timesinks are inevitable in good MMOs, its the universal difficulty. Almost a necessary buffer at this point, I don't really see any way around this and completely disagree with BRPs sentiment that all MMOs would be better without it. It's really easy to say "Well an endless stream of complex encounters would do the trick!".. but you know as well as I do that isn't really practical in a game where you play against AI.

And boy are we getting sidetracked lol, going from a hopeful XIV model to MMOs in general. Look, everybody just wants to have fun and have their interest kept to justify the monthly payment. The blueprint for that is going to vary from person to person, so this conversation could last forever. You NEED (1)time sinks for the hardcore, (2)complex encounters for the elite, and (3)short encounters for the casual. A good game will incorporate everything with proportions differing depending on who your intended audience is. Going back to the earlier discussion, WoW is mostly 3 with an ever decreasing amount of 2. FFXI 1 with a dash of 3. Personally, I'd want XIV to prioritize healthy doses of 1&2 and worry about 3 if theres still time.

Starcraft/Counterstrike is poker to an MMO's Tic Tac Toe

Lol, fucking poker? Really? At least say chess or something, starcraft deserves more than luck of the draw.

[Kawfee]

Both of your counter arguments/reasoning is that your "opponent" in MMOs is AI, rather than human players (assuming PVE content). While this is true, that is only half of the appeal. The other half of the equation is your teammates.

I think everyone can agree that the appeal of an MMO is experiencing challenges simultaneously with other players, and when you overcome them together, can feel pretty great.

Celeras says,

It's really easy to say "Well an endless stream of complex encounters would do the trick!".. but you know as well as I do that isn't really practical in a game where you play against AI.

And I ask, why? Why is it unreasonable that I pressure the devs to create new and challenging encounters when I pay them to do so each month?

Yes it's difficult to consistently be that creative and try to come up with "new" scenarios, but I think that should at least be your goal. Just to throw an example, while you mention the RNG, I don't think randomness is really used in encounters enough. When done with intelligence, adding randomness to encounters can make for fun, repeatable challenges.

When looking at MMO design as a whole, I can think of a good example in WOW of what I'm trying to say - the majority of the game you do the exact same thing, kill X of these, gather Y of these, etc. However, in their Instanced dungeons, the majority of their bosses are all unique fights. I don't know how many boss fights there are in the game, but to use imaginary numbers, say 80% of your time in WOW is monotonous and 20% is unique fights. You could at least strive (which I think WOW has tried, at least in WOTLK) to transfer that percentage to more uniqueness less grindy-monotony. We can all agree that's a good thing, can't we? Say FFXIV is 50% grindy 50% unique fights. That would be progress. Is it so unrealistic to hope that the model can keep being refined until its 100% unique challenge experiences as you progress through the game and 0% boring grindfest?

The battle system we've seen glimpses of thus far in FFXIV seems to indicate that they are at least trying to make even the mundane fights more interesting, hopefully that philosophy is indicative of the game as a whole.


EDIT: Also, to what Celeras says about "1, 2, 3" blends of games (1=timesink, 2=elite, 3=casual), I think that you are both right, and wrong. You can have a timesink that is made up of "elite challenges". Just because it's a timesink doesn't mean it has to be boring.

[Correction]

Lol, fucking poker? Really? At least say chess or something, starcraft deserves more than luck of the draw.

Not on some maps