Obama a Hero.

[zoobernut]

See above.

Like I said in my post.... what I said is purely based on anecdotal evidence. Evidence from talking to my father in law who has been a nuclear engineer for a very long time, and from my friend who is an EE and from EE professors I had that worked as EE's outside of college.

I guess I was mistaken I always thought the people doing the high voltage work were technicians. It is a fairly complex and stressful job but it is still maintenance of an already existing system, which usually doesn't require an engineering degree, I guess that assumption was wrong.

My original point still stands regardless that the job of president is very mentally stressful and different people relate to different stressful jobs differently.

I know personally a dangerous job is stressful but not nearly as stressful as a mentally taxing job for me. I would not want to be the guy who has to decide whether or not to send people to war.

[Kryssan]

Like I said in my post.... what I said is purely based on anecdotal evidence. Evidence from talking to my father in law who has been a nuclear engineer for a very long time, and from my friend who is an EE and from EE professors I had that worked as EE's outside of college.

I guess I was mistaken I always thought the people doing the high voltage work were technicians. It is a fairly complex and stressful job but it is still maintenance of an already existing system, which usually doesn't require an engineering degree, I guess that assumption was wrong.

Even a lowly ASO at a nuclear power plant will at a bare minimum have an applied nuclear sciences degree. ASOs are Auxiliary System Operators. Those are the guys at the bottom of the foodchain, taking logs and touring spaces on the non-nuclear equipment. Generators, distribution systems, etc. The only difference between an ASO's job and that of a plant technician at any other electrical plant facility, or really any industrial facility, who will not necessarily be required to have a degree, is the consequences if they fail to take action. Senior reactor operators will obviously be required to have a lot more, plant management will be higher still. Yet these people are still required to perform the routine maintenance of the systems of which they operate. Ever seen what an electrician looks like after climbing out of a motor-generator brush clean and inspect? They can put any knuckle-dragging mechanic rolling in oil in a auto shop to shame; and in many points their jobs are very comparable - the difference then lies only in what the equipment they're operating is used for and the level of expertise on it they are required to have. Research, Design, and Materials will have a lot higher knowledge requirements than that, and probably a highly specialized degree to go along with it. But all of them are engineers. The electrical field really isn't that different - and really that can be applied to any of the engineering fields in some form or fashion. Do the guys running the low lines have degrees? The actual surveyors themselves? Utility branch operators? Probably not. Some of them might though. More than likely they're journeyman of some sort, if they're in it as a career without a degree. However, anyone working in a situation that requires specialized technical knowledge will be billeted as an engineer of some sort. You are not going to let someone without that knowledge work on 4160 and higher voltage lines. Sure, you can kill yourself - but lets look at it from the stance of the actual company. What does it mean when a worker dies on the job? What does it mean when said worker dies whilst working on a backbone gridline project that subsequently results in a blackout for a major city? What does it mean to the city/area that is currently suffering from inclement weather? How many additional people are going to die from that loss of power? Granted, the personnel actually doing this work will probably be more concerned with their own hides at the time of the evolution than that of what their consequences of failure will have, which is why I am not saying that these people have a job that is necessarily more stressful than someone else. However. You don't hand that responsibility off to the lowest common denominator - not without OSHA there to remind you of your foolishness at any rate. As archi mentioned, how about air traffic controller? Is the knowledge that your mistake just killed a few hundred people supposed to be less stressful to that person who committed it than the president issuing forth a policy or action that causes the same end result? Do you think that when these people are presented to the public by the media for their mistakes that they will have someone on their side pointing out the fact that they're human too?

My original point still stands regardless that the job of president is very mentally stressful and different people relate to different stressful jobs differently.

I know personally a dangerous job is stressful but not nearly as stressful as a mentally taxing job for me. I would not want to be the guy who has to decide whether or not to send people to war.

I am not and have not yet argued against your point in regards to the fact that the office of the president is a stressful job. What I do not understand is your followon statement. How are these other jobs not mentally stressful? How is the knowledge that you have the potential to kill thousands of people during the normal course of a working day any less stressful mentally? Sending people to war for example - a lot of presidents have some sort of military experience. Obama does not. Does he know he is sending troops to die? Yes, I'm sure he probably does. Does he understand it? I think you're hiding behind the convienent excuse offered by the shear magnitude of the amount of people he has the potential of affecting with his decisions. Do you think telling troops to go and fight is the same thing as the staff planning the attacks? Knowing from experience what a mistake will cost in their planning? As the military officers on the line carrying forth the orders of the staff and actually ordering the men and women that serve for them to walk into what they know is a high probability of death? How is the positions of these people any less mentally stressful than what his choice is? Just because of the amount of people that they potentially have the affect of? I am not trying to make a counterpoint on his inexperience in the issue; I think a lot of people when they are in such a high position of oversight oft lose sight of just what those statistics they quote actually mean when they're discussing the next course of action. But if your counterpoint is merely that mental stress is only a function the danger one imposes on others, I should think you're looking to the wrong places. What the president is in charge of compared to what the people who advise him of how he should act; be it militarily or from the civilian side - his stress on the issues of which he governs is shared greatly with that of those beneath him, and their specific concerns regarding their fields of expertise I would dare wager will be higher than his. Assuming said personnel are competent and aware, at least. At the end of the day, the president has many ways of shedding that stress that are not available to people working in these other fields. I think its great that he has the opportunity to do so; but I also believe the other areas deserve the same, and I know they're nowhere near as likely to get it.

Of course, all of these jobs have one thing in common; clearly defined goals. They have a job to do. They have to be good at doing it. Their co-workers or their community will judge them based on how well they perform based on a specific set of expectations. As long as everything remains the same - i.e; no mass blackouts or burning deaths - everyone should be relatively happy.

When you're the President, you don't get any of that. Anything can happen on any given day and you've got to deal with it. You get crucified for every move by part of the country even while praised by the other. Every idea you have about how to improve America has to go through hundreds of other people in Congress who each have their own political agenda to address. You're judged by every news agency in the country and around the world on what you say. Your words can start wars or your actions end them. Those soldiers who risk their lives? Well it's the President's decision to send them into action, and he has to be the one to make that decision and live with the consequences every day.

From the moment a President takes office - and before - every action and word is scrutinized and dissected. When the normal working man comes home for the evening, his job is over until the next day. The President is the President 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There are no holidays or sick days for the President. Sure, they can take vacations, but these are often retreats to consult with advisors and analysts about what to do regarding any of a dozen issues sitting on your plate at any given time.

You say its a thankless job Zealot, stating that some people will always be against his actions. Ok, I can agree to that somewhat. What do you mean that people are generally happy about what these people do? You think just because you haven't seen the media covering an anti-whatever protest that they don't happen on a regular basis? You honestly believe that people are of the mentality that just ok we have to have this so as long as its happening as we want it to we're not going to argue against it? Really? Not really. Not even close. The president has people that will defend his actions as well as people that will rebuke them. These other jobs are no different, they have to put up with it as well. Although in their case they oft don't have people publically defending them, because it is easier to rebuke them with the crowd instead. Just because it isn't plastered all over the national media doesn't mean it isn't there, or the threat offered isn't as real. At least the president has a protection agency to shield him from the really mentally challenged. Your bias and lack of knowledge on public opinion is showing. To be honest though, this is more a function of just how pathetic our media is and what they feel to be 'news'.


Also, what is it you mean by no clearly defined goals? The office of the president has fairly defined goals, when you take it from the point-blank point of view as you are with these other jobs. Now, the methods for accomplishing these will be significantly different depending on the situation and the person. Whereas a plant operator will have a procedure for how to deal with situations that arise, the president doesn't necessarily have a clear cut black and white book to follow that tells him what to do - oh wait. Thats right, a lot of those people don't either. Routine ops, sure. There are procedures for it - but lets define routine. Soldiers are trained for routine combat excursions... what is routine? Is sitting in front of a panel where the parameters probably won't change for 3 months routine? Perhaps. But what if that panel is a reactor plant control console? Is it routine then? If the answer is yes, then I make the point that for the job as specified, the president's day to day life is a routine politik of exchanging and developing diplomacy. Going to rebuke that by saying the president could affect more people? Ok lets move that reactor plant to a carrier that's off the coast of Japan. How about now? Want to know what the Japanese think about American nuclear power? Any ideas on how diplomatic relations can suddenly change based on routine ops at said station? What about when the shit hits the fan? Well, you have a lot of general guidelines on what you're supposed to prevent and how you're supposed to prevent it, but operator knowledge is required and expected in order to ensure everything will be alright. Books do not cover all situations for any situation. The actions you believe to be right might wind up being the best case solution that still winds up fucking with the lives of a lot of people. You really think they're not going to get slammed as hard? And who will be there to defend them when it happens?


The soldier thing? Read above. What the president does on his level is honestly no comparison to what the levels below him are putting forth. The president tells them what he wants to have happen on a broad general scale, with a general idea of what the consequences will be. However, he is not the commander of the strategic platform that just received the order to wipe out an area. Yet the latter has to be able to take that order and not only be willing to carry it out when ordered, we have to know that he's only going to use it when ordered to do so.

So no, I don't think there's a job with a higher stress level and lower pay.

And I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. I will however conceed something to zoob. The person handling that stress will make a large difference in how much of the stress they actually feel whilst conducting their job. What one person will consider as high stress and impossible goals another person will consider entertaining or fulfilling.

[Anomander]

Almost died laughing when my grandparents turned on fox news today. While I agree the award was a bit premature, how the fuck do people take that shit seriously?

[Max™]

Am I the only one who knew Obama would be the next president back in 2005~?

Has his general platform and stated goals not given an outline of what to expect?


I mean... you guys weren't shocked that this black dude suddenly popped up and won, were you? I have a guy on my palladium rpg boards, does news reporting in D.C., he was telling us all years ago to keep an eye on Obama, that the dude was the next president.


Besides... it's just a fucking peace prize... Al Gore won one for talking about climate change for god's sake guys... seriously, welcome to Earth.

[Stilzkin]

Am I the only one who knew Obama would be the next president back in 2005~?

I knew he'd be president the first time I saw him on tv a few years ago. A young black guy who seems smart just seemed like something people would vote for. Honestly I had no idea USA was so racist until after he was elected.

People keep complaining about him winning the nobel prize but never does anyone talk about the candidate who they thought should have won insted. The peace prize isn't just about peace these days anyway and him managing to become president and inspire and spread his slogan of hope across the world is something. Who else did something like that? Did he deserve it? Maybe not but it's not like he is completely unworthy of it.

[Korietsu]

Both electrical and nuclear engineers get involved in field work, and once again, these fields are massively broad. I was specific in regards to the electrical field however. There I was referring to the personnel who have to suit up in metal suits and do PMS/CM on high potential lines, or jobs that involve similar levels of stress - not the paperwork side of it. Believe it or not, that suit is their protection. Faraday's principle is the only thing protecting them. Yes, most of these people are engineers. I am not referring to the people that come out and read the meters on your house, or likewise, obviously - but then again I sincerely doubt said people would be 'engineers' anyway. As an example, my father is an EE that was a CTE for Jordan Dam, Sharron Harris NPP, University Towers, and has at some point or another touched or overseen a vast majority of the power poles in the eastern US during their layout in 20+ years of service to the industry. One day he would be drafting the papers in CAD for designing the layout of a new grid line and the next he'd be out surveying a line for a coop and the next he'd be across the country in the mud helping other engineers, volunteers, etc re-lay electrical lines knocked out by natural disaster.

I'm going to go ahead and say that EE's don't regularly do fieldwork related to high power lines or even mess with them. Master Electricians do that kind of work. The majority of your EE's are either working in RF/Electromagnetics/VLSI/Nanotech Electronics design and blowing up fabs with new chip designs. Civil E's/Mech E's are your guys out in the field, that or you're working with former Army Corps of Engineers/Sea Bees. Also, the majority of people with Engineering degrees aren't even engineers, as they aren't certified P.E.'s either.

[Kryssan]

I'm going to go ahead and say that EE's don't regularly do fieldwork related to high power lines or even mess with them. Master Electricians do that kind of work. The majority of your EE's are either working in RF/Electromagnetics/VLSI/Nanotech Electronics design and blowing up fabs with new chip designs. Civil E's/Mech E's are your guys out in the field, that or you're working with former Army Corps of Engineers/Sea Bees. Also, the majority of people with Engineering degrees aren't even engineers, as they aren't certified P.E.'s either.

If you go that route, just about every nuclear engineer isn't an engineer either, including the design guys. Most of them have not been certified as an engineer, hence why they are referred to as 'operators' rather than engineers. I can argue semantics too you see, but that isn't the point here. The people working both field and office have a multitude of degrees, that are not necessarily indicative to their actual job.

[Korietsu]

If you go that route, just about every nuclear engineer isn't an engineer either, including the design guys. Most of them have not been certified as an engineer, hence why they are referred to as 'operators' rather than engineers. I can argue semantics too you see, but that isn't the point here. The people working both field and office have a multitude of degrees, that are not necessarily indicative to their actual job.

CE's, ME's and NE's are usually required to have a PE to work in their fields.

EDIT: Most EE's don't need PE's since they aren't working in public domain or certifying documents. There was a huge push for EE's to get their EIT then their PE's down at TI after they almost got sued over some dude with his masters certifying the design. I know very few EE's who even work with the utilities industry, much less anything outside of RF/Nano(Micro)electronics.

[Day]

Everyone seems jallas.

[Kryssan]

CE's, ME's and NE's are usually required to have a PE to work in their fields.

EDIT: Most EE's don't need PE's since they aren't working in public domain or certifying documents. There was a huge push for EE's to get their EIT then their PE's down at TI after they almost got sued over some dude with his masters certifying the design. I know very few EE's who even work with the utilities industry, much less anything outside of RF/Nano(Micro)electronics.

I'm not sure about CE or ME, but if NE is referring to nuclear engineering I don't know of any off the top of my head with a PE. Its honestly not necessary for one, and for two its kind of silly for a nuke to be qualified it. Nukes are licensed to operate per the station they are at; moving to a new station requires them to be completely relicensed. As a nuke you are either licensed via NRC or NR. They're two separate entities under the DoE, you can't cross from one into the other without getting a blank slate. You essentially have to start over. Perhaps some of the design and materials guys have PEs since they are fairly static and more of a product/service related area, but they are more ME inclined than NE inclined because of the nature of their job. Most of those guys will only have applied nuclear degrees and they'll actually be mechanical/electrial engineers with some speciality such as irradiated materials. I don't speak with the labs on a frequent basis to know more and any research knowledge I had from my own time as an intern is years old.

Once again, the reason they're called operators and not engineers is due to some organizations getting real tiffy about that word. However, they perform the functions of an engineer, so for the portent of this debate I believe it to be an applicable term.


Also, the field for electrical utilities at large has a nice mixture of CE and EE. Typically the process starts off with them being EE and then realizing they can make more money by getting SRWA and BL/RE licenses and underbidding corporate contracts if they're going to continue in the utility field rather than a speciality field as you point out. I don't specifically know what the mixture rate of CE and EE are for that, but I see it quite often.


Another note. After someone goes through PNEO(NR) or its NRC equivalent, whatever degree/engineering specialization they had prior to it really becomes just a piece of paper showing their trail path. I will say that often enough people with backgrounds in a particular field will continue to advance down that field after the nuclear version of engineering quals, so for example a person with a specialization in materials would probably be found either in testing/design of core construction... that isn't necessarily the case. I'm also leaving quite a bit off as far as chemistry is concerned too, but that's because I'm not familiar with the chemistry layout for engineering even though it also plays a pretty important role.

[Byrthnoth]

Whatever you guys. If Fidel likes it than it must be good!

[Holman]

He hasn't done anything, and he won't do anything. Like most black people.

Like most black people?.........What do you mean by this statement. If you're going to tell me African Americans aren't responsible for majority of the machines we use.....than you seriously don't know shit.

[Xno Kappa]

Pay no mind to Kuya. He's just your friendly neighborhood gay Puerto Rican.

[Day]

He/She's also black lol. Don't get trolled.

[Ivve]

He/She's also black lol. Don't get trolled.

Too late! Hackle status: raised.

[zoobernut]

If you go that route, just about every nuclear engineer isn't an engineer either, including the design guys. Most of them have not been certified as an engineer, hence why they are referred to as 'operators' rather than engineers. I can argue semantics too you see, but that isn't the point here. The people working both field and office have a multitude of degrees, that are not necessarily indicative to their actual job.

Holy hell wall of text. Paragraphs are nice and make it easier to read your posts. Since the last post is too long I will respond to this one. Call it semantics if you want but the fact is that the people you are talking about are not actually certified as engineers. They do not have engineering degrees and they are not recognized as engineers by the state. I am not saying their job was any easier to get or easier to do I was just being particular about the use of the term engineer. It is the equivalent of calling a garbage man a sanitation engineer.

Also I have worked construction before and also worked as a ski lift maintenance person. I have had my fare share of situations that were dangerous physically. It wasn't all that mentally stressful. Anyway it doesn't matter because at this point it is a non-argument. There are a lot of stressful jobs in the world and president is one of them. No job can be more stressful than any other on a ranking scale because the stress level of each job is relative to the person. Which is what I said in my preceding two posts but you seemed to have missed.

[Kryssan]

Holy hell wall of text. Paragraphs are nice and make it easier to read your posts. Since the last post is too long I will respond to this one. Call it semantics if you want but the fact is that the people you are talking about are not actually certified as engineers. They do not have engineering degrees and they are not recognized as engineers by the state. I am not saying their job was any easier to get or easier to do I was just being particular about the use of the term engineer. It is the equivalent of calling a garbage man a sanitation engineer.

Most of them do have engineering degrees, as far as nukes are concerned. Not getting an engineering accredited degree is a waste of money in that regard (with exception to EWS/EOOW qualified navy nukes, especially if they've passed PEWS/PENO, they can get away without it - but not someone who is going the civilian route). They are not however certified by the state as engineers because power plants are not regulated that way. Nuclear engineers do not offer a product or service that is state regulated and therefore it is not something worth the time to get PE because it won't help your career path other than adding an extra bullet to your resume. What will make or break your career is the NRC/NR certifications.

Also I have worked construction before and also worked as a ski lift maintenance person. I have had my fare share of situations that were dangerous physically. It wasn't all that mentally stressful. Anyway it doesn't matter because at this point it is a non-argument. There are a lot of stressful jobs in the world and president is one of them. No job can be more stressful than any other on a ranking scale because the stress level of each job is relative to the person. Which is what I said in my preceding two posts but you seemed to have missed.

I will however conceed something to zoob. The person handling that stress will make a large difference in how much of the stress they actually feel whilst conducting their job. What one person will consider as high stress and impossible goals another person will consider entertaining or fulfilling.

C'mon zoob, I know your reading comprehension is better than that.

[zoobernut]

Ah I must have missed that. Really that is the most important thing in this whole discussion.

And I do understand what you are saying about the Nuclear engineers now. There are a lot of different types of jobs you can have out there as an engineer and some of them involve physically demanding field work and some of them do not. I have always wanted to understand more about what my father in law does but he doesn't talk about it much because most of it requires high security clearance so he is pretty quiet about it. I do know in his safety inspections he does suit up and tour the entire plants.

[Skjie]

Really surprised only one person commented on Castro's opinion.
The Associated Press: Fidel Castro calls Obama Nobel positive measure

[Gadritan]

If you're going to tell me African Americans aren't responsible for majority of the machines we use.....than you seriously don't know shit.

I really hate PC labels. I'm going to start saying I'm a Euro-Native American instead of a white boy.

And no, they aren't responsible for the majority of the machines we use. People are. People from many, many, many different cultures. Collaborations of information and ideas from various people from various cultures. Unless of course you want to say that some of the great inventors and mathematicians such as Nikola Tesla and Leonardo da Vinci were "African Americans."

To give any one race credit for something like that is about as ignorant of a statement as you could possibly make. To even want to give a specific race credit for something like that is exceptionally ignorant and racist on it's own. It's a large world, very large. It really doesn't make two shits less than a fuck what race the inventors were, their brilliance and ingenuity are truly what matter. People like you just perpetuate the cycle.