Random Question Thread V: But does it 6-hit

[Fottiti]

It only takes 6 average players to kill with 6, just need to know what you're doing. 6 Blms is more than enough but if you want to play it safe have them move out of AoE range when it flies and only come in with fresh stoneskin to nuke it down. All the support can be out of range also if you have enough fire resist.

Rdm with carol/barfira and 20k worth of barfire gear will easily resist most of its attacks, takes well under 250 fire resist to cap out iirc.

I think it has around 50k hp but may be off with that, it has no regen though and doesn't resist nukes heavily.

[Siniroth]

idk how Shadowbind works (always break when someone hits it from my experience), but I know Bind only breaks after a certain amount of damage is dealt... but :/ if that's how Shadowbind works, then I'm just blind.

Shadowbind breaks at damage >= 1

Bind breaks at random, can be anything, can last through several tier IV nukes (based on limbus eyeballing duoing NW Apollyon ofc)

[Darlantan]

Eh that always seemed like a wash since most times that I get hit with something random it's just as likely to be a nuke as a physical hit, like I said I'm typically comfortable with my magic defense level against that stuff between native RDM MDB and Relic+1 hands, but that doesn't mean I want to be wearing magic damage+.

Merman's/Patronus ring are good options, shouldnt idle in items that are doing absolutely nothing unless there isnt any decent options available, which shouldnt be the case. Even if you are comfortable with your survivality in general, you cant really switch to your pdt/mdt/mdb sets to eat less damage of aoes, for example.

how much is a regular blm going to take off it per nuke?
and finally! with 2 good rdm/nin tanks, decent support, and 6~ well geared blms, is this gonna be difficult? i know people have done it with 6, but i want a realistic difficulty for average players

Unresisted nukes should usually take around 1%. With a tank with a fire resist build, some support and a few blms it should be easy. Its important your bard bought fire carol though!

[Karbuncle]

Out of the three NMs that drop "Ebur Pigment", Whats the "easiest" one.

of the three theres Oupire, Scylla, Zirnitra, I'll take any strategy rather it be kiting or what.

Scylla is probably completely ruled out as he's a rapefest, but theres little to no info on how "tough" Oupire and Zirnitra are.

My guess is Oupire, You could 6 man it with the right DD and support, but is there anyone out there who's actually done it and can offer up a strategy?

[tsola]

Zirnitra is probably the easiest. I've duo'd it a few times as RDM/NINx2 without much trouble at all. I have no experience with Oupire though.

Just need to run when you see it do Reaving Wing, since it'll follow up with Calamitious Wind. Other than that it's a simple fight, but not sure what jobs you have available.

[Karbuncle]

Zirnitra is probably the easiest. I've duo'd it a few times as RDM/NINx2 without much trouble at all. I have no experience with Oupire though.

Just need to run when you see it do Reaving Wing, since it'll follow up with Calamitious Wind. Other than that it's a simple fight, but not sure what jobs you have available.

i got 5 people maybe, of the jobs i know...

1) PLD,NIN,WAR,DRG,SMN,THF
2) DRK,BLU,SAM,???
3) SCH,WHM,SMN,???
4) BRD,SMN,???
5) SMN,WHM,DRG.

Outside of that i do know 2 RDM/NINs but both are afk or away... Any special way you're suppose to tank Zirnitra? Melee Style, Cactrot-Rapido style, On its Wings, away from face etc =o?

[stewie]

1) PLD
2) BLU or SAM
3) WHM
4) BRD
5) SMN

That's more than enough for Oupire. Cannonball works well iirc, you could probably have the BLU come SAM and just not melee during Ice Spikes.

[Karbuncle]

That's more than enough for Oupire. Cannonball works well iirc, you could probably have the BLU come SAM and just not melee during Ice Spikes.

Good, Anything i should look out for? the PLD (me) has no -real- experience with Vampyrs, I assume Stun -agas and get rid of Doom ASAP?

Double March yah =o?

[tsola]

i got 5 people maybe, of the jobs i know...

1) PLD,NIN,WAR,DRG,SMN,THF
2) DRK,BLU,SAM,???
3) SCH,WHM,SMN,???
4) BRD,SMN,???
5) SMN,WHM,DRG.

Outside of that i do know 2 RDM/NINs but both are afk or away... Any special way you're suppose to tank Zirnitra? Melee Style, Cactrot-Rapido style, On its Wings, away from face etc =o?

I'd use PLD BLU WHM BRD SMN too for Zirnitra. There isn't any special way to tank it; no breath moves or anything.

Maybe Oupire might be easier though, but again never fought it.

[stewie]

Good, Anything i should look out for? the PLD (me) has no -real- experience with Vampyrs, I assume Stun -agas and get rid of Doom ASAP?

Double March yah =o?

Pretty much, it's not that hard to tank. I'd disengage during ice spikes, it rotates the element that it is and during fire/ice/lightning it has the respective spikes.

[Kyte]

I remember having a conversation where Suiram told me to get Gnads instead of Mirage. There might have been other factors that influenced his advice though.

Auditory will beat Justice torque, but that is song dependent so I didn't include it.

Elvaan RSE should be roughly equal to bibiki shell depending on the situation. It's an either or situation until we figure out exactly how CB works. Current gear choices are based on an incomplete formula.

I did the math recently on Gnad. Helm vs Mirage; it came out a lot closer than they implied in that conversation because I don't think they took account for alpha when they calculated the D rating. I'll have to redo the math (later....it's too late now and I'm feeling lazy), but I think it mostly depended on how much STR or VIT you had before headgear.

[Wolfknight]

I did the math recently on Gnad. Helm vs Mirage; it came out a lot closer than they implied in that conversation because I don't think they took account for alpha when they calculated the D rating. I'll have to redo the math (later....it's too late now and I'm feeling lazy), but I think it mostly depended on how much STR or VIT you had before headgear.

I thought answer was orc won during CA, and Mirage won if no CA active. Though if you can work the math to show either would be nice to know.

[Suiram]

I've always taken level correction into account when this discussion comes up lol It's somewhat discourteous to assume a disagreement arises from a mistake on the other person's part.

Although the only discussion I remember going into detail about was for base damage of multi-hit spells, it's possible that Cannonball was brought up in a side conversation somewhere, and Gnad's is indeed better.

Look at it this way: Assuming the appropriate gear and merits, Mirage adds +2 to base damage from BLU skill. It (assuming NQ) also adds +0, +1, or +2 to WSC depending on your previous VIT. It will add +0 8.5% of the time, it will add +1 58.5% of the time, and it will add +2 33% of the time.

For Gnad's, you get +1 from fSTR, and another +1 in 50% of cases depending on where STR-VIT lands. For WSC, depending on STR, you get +2 in 51% of cases, and +3 in the other 49%.

So for non-CA:
Mirage is +2 8.5% of the time, +3 58.5%, and +4 33%.
Gnad's is +3 25.5% of the time,+4 50%, and +5 24.5%.

For CA:
Mirage is +2 8.5% of the time, +4 58.5%, and +6 33%.
Gnad's is +5 25.5% of the time, +6 25.5%, +8 24.5%, and +9 24.5%.


So as you can see, Gnad's is clearly better on CA and slightly better on non-CA. Although, in the Cannonball case as opposed to the multi-hit case, CA is more important because you are either using it in half of your casts (if your Cannonball technique is like mine) or in all of them (if you're a build-TP-to-300%-and-epeen style of player). As always needs to be said, the WSC increases are not determined by the mob, and so can actually be judged on a case-by-case basis without a player leaving his or her moghouse. And again this is only for base damage and not for overall damage (although it doesn't matter much in the Cannonball question because the DEF difference is 1~2 points, as opposed to multihit where we don't really know for sure what skill+5 does for attack).

As for how those %s were derived. I know it's not particularly elegant, but I just counted the number of incidences of each increase (yes, after accounting for level correction!) to WSC for STR/VIT between 1 and 1000 and divided by 1000 lol

Also, for the record, this question originally came up (with respect to multi-hit spells) when someone who had Gnad's wondered if they needed to trouble themselves getting AF2, or if it was good enough that they could justify just sticking with it (before looking at it and finding Gnad's was in fact mostly a better choice, at least with respect to base damage). I'm on the other side, I personally use AF2+1 because I have it and, while it too is not going to be as good as Gnad's for Cannonball, I don't find the difference to be worth going through the time and effort to justify lotting it over someone else, and my Cannonball gear is otherwise pretty top-notch.

[Mattaru7]

I've had a few questions for a while generally about thf. How exactly does attack work? How much of a difference is there between Antares Harness and Dragon harness (Attack on Dragon vs. Acc/DEX/AGI Boosts on Antares)? And would Skadi hands be better than the Rogue's Armlets +1? And kind of wondering in general where Skadi gear fits in, in comparison to other gear available for thf. This last one is about drg, is there a point where the Askar body beats Zahak's mail or drakesbane? And is there a point where penta thrust beats drakesbane (I think I read about this one somewhere, but I figured i'd ask)?

[requim]

@Mattaru7

As far as skadi hands vs AF+1, you should have base agi around 65 or so minimum. Skadi would just give you a solid 5agi, 75% 1fstr, 25% 2fstr and then 12.5 attack, whereas AF+1 gives you 65*.15~9.

So even before you start stacking agi gear AF+1 will already be doing more damage. Once you slap on the rest of your agi options, AF+1 is giving you another damage for ever 6/7 agi you add. Attack definitely plays a role, but in this glove debate, AF+1 should always win.

I think in general drakes will win, and when it doesn't you might use WT as oposed to penta. For penta vs drakes you have a 5 hit acc (for a high acc job) 20% str/dex vs a 4 hit crit 50% str. Basically a crit should be increasing your damage by at least 50% if not about doubling it, so if you do get a single crit, coupled with drakes better mods and sc-ability, drakes wins. Might be wrong, but assuming you can average at least a single crit per drakes you have much better maximum potential.

Note that evisceration vs dancing edge is a similar comparison, but that in that case dancing edge has a higher damage modifier, like 18% before wsmods, on top of having 40% chr, which while mediocre still adds a decent chunk from your base chr (iirc like 22+), also that thf has significantly less acc than drg.

[TacoTaru]

Considering buying a Lu Shangs with my fiancee and a friend and all of us leveling fishing between us. Is there a parser you can run to check on your 200 cap or do you just have to count on your own?

[Kyte]

I've always taken level correction into account when this discussion comes up lol

Come to think of it I think it was someone else who didn't factor it in; I can't remember the name.

EDIT: Ya, found the post, was Sirrus. Although really I never even named your name specifically in the first place...

And again this is only for base damage and not for overall damage (although it doesn't matter much in the Cannonball question because the DEF difference is 1~2 points, as opposed to multihit where we don't really know for sure what skill+5 does for attack).

I would maybe question whether or not skill factors somewhat into Cannonball's attack power as well, unless the tests you did showed otherwise.

[Karbuncle]

Pretty much, it's not that hard to tank. I'd disengage during ice spikes, it rotates the element that it is and during fire/ice/lightning it has the respective spikes.

This worked well, laughably easy to tank, and i was worried =P

the BLU/THF did really well, about 1500 Average CB and 2200 occasionally, did use Nosferatu's Kiss a few times but never summoned a doppelganger.

Did noticed during Earth mode it had a pretty potent Stoneskin (Absorbed an entire cannonball and then some), and had about 10~20 Shadows in Wind mode...

While he was low on HP he did cast Paralyga a few times in Ice mode, which was a pain... also Graviga in Wind mode, nothing more than a nuisance really.

Keep Slow/Elegy up the whole fight and it was just a fun fight D:, got my Ebur pigment and 2 Cambric, didnt have a THF didn't think about it >.>


Oh, also, when it went back into Wind/Earth mode i noticed it didn't re-get the effects of Stoneskin/Blink after we took them away for the first time.

[Byrthnoth]

Has anyone confirmed Papilo Kirpan actually works like Blau?

There was one report in the NM thread of someone equipping it and getting Atk+14, but I could see SE doing something gay like A) Not giving it Acc or B) Only giving stat boosts when >100TP.

[Suiram]

Come to think of it I think it was someone else who didn't factor it in; I can't remember the name.

EDIT: Ya, found the post, was Sirrus. Although really I never even named your name specifically in the first place...



I would maybe question whether or not skill factors somewhat into Cannonball's attack power as well, unless the tests you did showed otherwise.

Yugl said "I remember having a conversation where Suiram..." and you quoted it and replied, "it came out a lot closer than they implied in that conversation because I don't think they took account for alpha..." That's the same as using my name specifically lol

Anyway, that's not why I'm responding. Regarding the skill thing, I go by something I read a number of years ago where someone did a few tests on various mobs with different DEF and one of the conclusions was that DEF improved Attack and Skill did not. I tried looking for it now but the only thing I found was a more recent post from last year that wasn't very thorough. A number of months ago I was going to try to determine exactly what the relationship was to determine Cannonball's attack, but my playtime now is considerably less than it once was, so I never got around to doing much with it, and I'm not sure when or if I will get a chance to.