Random Question Thread V: But does it 6-hit

[Eleven19]

http://ffximath.risen-guild.com/?p=35

Wow, I was pretty sure it would come out on top but God damn, that's a pretty chunky amount.

So here's the 64 million dollar question, would you be able to compensate on relic sam, who's delay is already 437 (-3% would go to 423.89, no idea if delay rounds), using minimal sTP gear and/or successive hits with Kaiten's aftermath up?

I hate that I don't think mathematically enough to do this myself lol.

[FailureMidgard]

Wow, I was pretty sure it would come out on top but God damn, that's a pretty chunky amount.

So here's the 64 million dollar question, would you be able to compensate on relic sam, who's delay is already 437 (-3% would go to 423.89, no idea if delay rounds), using minimal sTP gear and/or successive hits with Kaiten's aftermath up?

I hate that I don't think mathematically enough to do this myself lol.

Good news is, regardless of rounding, its 10.8 TP/hit. 'cause I dunno how the game rounds.

First off, assuming Kaiten's aftermath is up 100% of the time:
You need an average of ~55 storeTP (16.7/10.8 rounded up).
25 base, 10 merit, 5 rajas, 1 brutal, 13 usu, 7 kaiten = 61 storeTP.
1.61*10.8=17.3 *5=86.5 TP phase, only need 25 storeTP for WS, which is guaranteed.


WS (no aftermath) = 10.8*1.41=15.2
100-15.2 = 84.8
Hit with Aftermath = 10.8*1.61=17.3
Hit without = 10.8*1.54=16.6
16.6*5=83, 1.8 short, you gain .7 per aftermath hit, 3*.7>1.8

So you need 3 hits with aftermath, 2 hits+WS without to keep your build.

I'd rather not get into the hypothetical other StoreTP gains personally.


My own question, if anyone knows the answer to save me some effort:
If you go with the assumption that you are fighting a mob with enough defense that Gekko will outdamage Kaiten, are you necessarily at a point where you are just under the attack cap on Gekko as well? Specifically, does an Amano sam have any use for Osode/Smilo+1? On meritish level mobs, you'd be spamming Kaiten and using Cerb+1/Foragers, when you hit a high defense mob and switch to Gekko, is there a chance you're still Gekko attk capped using said items? Or are you guaranteed to be under Gekko attack cap?

[FailureMidgard]

I just realized my link didn't really respond to this correctly, but your stats are off on that also Kirschy. Usu Body has 8 STR, so its 2dex, 2str, -3delay, 6stp vs 12attack, 2DA. But ya, my link only shows Sword beating Pole. As for the last question, whenever I have a cor planning to Sam roll (Ein seems to be the only place), then I use Pole Grip. I haven't actually worked out the math on the chances of various roll values, but iirc it goes from a 8 to a 7 needed to have a 5hit, which just eyeballing seems like it will destroy whatever a Sword Grip can offer.

[Eleven19]

Good news is, regardless of rounding, its 10.8 TP/hit. 'cause I dunno how the game rounds.

First off, assuming Kaiten's aftermath is up 100% of the time:
You need an average of ~55 storeTP (16.7/10.8 rounded up).
25 base, 10 merit, 5 rajas, 1 brutal, 13 usu, 7 kaiten = 61 storeTP.
1.61*10.8=17.3 *5=86.5 TP phase, only need 25 storeTP for WS, which is guaranteed.


WS (no aftermath) = 10.8*1.41=15.2
100-15.2 = 84.8
Hit with Aftermath = 10.8*1.61=17.3
Hit without = 10.8*1.54=16.6
16.6*5=83, 1.8 short, you gain .7 per aftermath hit, 3*.7>1.8

So you need 3 hits with aftermath, 2 hits+WS without to keep your build.

I'd rather not get into the hypothetical other StoreTP gains personally.


My own question, if anyone knows the answer to save me some effort:
If you go with the assumption that you are fighting a mob with enough defense that Gekko will outdamage Kaiten, are you necessarily at a point where you are just under the attack cap on Gekko as well? Specifically, does an Amano sam have any use for Osode/Smilo+1? On meritish level mobs, you'd be spamming Kaiten and using Cerb+1/Foragers, when you hit a high defense mob and switch to Gekko, is there a chance you're still Gekko attk capped using said items? Or are you guaranteed to be under Gekko attack cap?

That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks. The problem for me is that I don't have Usu body, I'm working off of Nuevo body with 10Acc / 4sTP for higher evasion mobs, and Askar body for low evasion / lower level mobs where acc is guaranteed to be capped.

So I'm working with 11/12 sTP respectively from Usu boots and knockoff body.

-3% delay is effectively the same as 3% haste, right? (I could be missing some massively obvious point, slap me in the face with it if I am) Just for an unusual option, you could probably use a sword strap and hachiman kotes with no attack speed loss, (Just the DA+2% loss) and no movement speed down, which could... uh, help, sometime?

What would be epic is if Haste+ was a possible augment on Hachiman Kote.

Edit: As for your last paragraph (Sorry forgot, lol), You do notice the decrease in WS damage but I can't tell how much of it is attributed to the loss of Hagun's TP bonus, and perhaps to Attack not being capped.

I can say that I've fat-fingered my macro's and Gekko'ed in my Kaiten gear, and I haven't noticed any difference eyeballing it vs Osode, but I don't have any hard numbers for you, sorry.

[Byrthnoth]

-3% delay is effectively the same as 3% haste, right?

-3% delay is like 3% Haste if you had 0% Haste to start with. It doesn't stack with Haste.

So having a 504 delay GA with 47% Haste gets you a delay of 268. 50% Haste gives you 252 delay. 47% Haste with -3% Delay gets you 260 delay.

[Killkenny]

At the risk of using a terrible mob for my example, I'm going to use fafnir. I found Kaiten would average around 50 damage higher without a bard. Obviously it would vary if roar takes berserk early on but the average is taken from 6 parses I have and each over the course of the whole fight (whilst berserk is up and when its down, fights typically lasted between 8-12 minutes and # of landed WS's vary from 17 to 34).

Average for gekko was 747 and Kaiten average was 799.

The parses are not very accurate and fafnir can spawn at different levels but it gives an idea. The question I couldn't answer myself is whether Gekko attack is capped on such a high level mob but I would guess almost certainly not.

tl;dr - Amano sam has no real use for osode in terms of pure damage as any situation you'd use gekko then brynie +1 would be superior (assuming no bard). Obviously gekko has uses outside of pure damage such as closing a skillchain if you happen to get tp just after another WS has been used which could open darkness.

[Eleven19]

At the risk of using a terrible mob for my example, I'm going to use fafnir. I found Kaiten would average around 50 damage higher without a bard. Obviously it would vary if roar takes berserk early on but the average is taken from 6 parses I have and each over the course of the whole fight (whilst berserk is up and when its down, fights typically lasted between 8-12 minutes and # of landed WS's vary from 17 to 34).

Average for gekko was 747 and Kaiten average was 799.

The parses are not very accurate and fafnir can spawn at different levels but it gives an idea. The question I couldn't answer myself is whether Gekko attack is capped on such a high level mob but I would guess almost certainly not.

tl;dr - Amano sam has no real use for osode in terms of pure damage as any situation you'd use gekko then brynie +1 would be superior (assuming no bard). Obviously gekko has uses outside of pure damage such as closing a skillchain if you happen to get tp just after another WS has been used which could open darkness.

That number seems off to me, whenever I'm fighting a higher DEF mob with no BRD, Kaiten never beats Gekko. For dyn-xarc if I'm without a brd, my Kaitens are garbage against all the NM's and even some of the lesser mobs. I actually haven't gotten to fight any HNM with it so I can't say either way vs Faf etc.

[Killkenny]

What does your WS gear look like? Also, I have never done xarc without a bard due to it being a planned event (and even then I would normally go war or drk).

[Eleven19]

Kaiten: http://www.ffxiah.com/members/?q=ite...&set_id=103047
YGK: http://www.ffxiah.com/members/?q=item_sets&set_id=49995

Unfortunately I haven't been able to get a gorget for it yet (Or any of my SAM WS's except Rana, which I don't even bother setting in the macro). Long story short, I don't have an event shell anymore, just hang out on a social with a few friends. I also still need my 25's for Usu pants. I've also been using Lightning Bow+1 lately, so not changing into STR+2 ammo.

[Thorny]

Can anyone give me a precise strat for soloing JoF on Cor.

run in circles with movement speed and use quick draw

[Killkenny]

My Kaiten WS set used to look like this except I replaced the triumph earring with Bushi.

In your experiences do you know if dia2/3 and angon were commonly on.

From memory Xarc mobs have very high defense.

[Eleven19]

My Kaiten WS set used to look like this except I replaced the triumph earring with Bushi.

In your experiences do you know if dia2/3 and angon were commonly on.

From memory Xarc mobs have very high defense.

No unfortunately, though yeah, Xarc mobs may be an even worse example than Faffles now that I think about it.

I do remember Faf being pretty squishy with Hagun, especially with overwhelm. Maybe he's not the level of defense I'm picturing.

-3% delay is like 3% Haste if you had 0% Haste to start with. It doesn't stack with Haste.

So having a 504 delay GA with 47% Haste gets you a delay of 268. 50% Haste gives you 252 delay. 47% Haste with -3% Delay gets you 260 delay.

I get it. So, because I'm mathematically incompetent, would -3% off of 437 (423.8~) be a bigger increase than dusk gloves 3% haste? Enough to justify giving up the 5 Att and 2% DA from Dusk?

[Byrthnoth]

If you have any other Haste at all, -3% delay will be worse than 3% Haste.

[Eleven19]

Alright I get it now, tyyy.

[FailureMidgard]

At the risk of using a terrible mob for my example, I'm going to use fafnir. I found Kaiten would average around 50 damage higher without a bard. Obviously it would vary if roar takes berserk early on but the average is taken from 6 parses I have and each over the course of the whole fight (whilst berserk is up and when its down, fights typically lasted between 8-12 minutes and # of landed WS's vary from 17 to 34).

Average for gekko was 747 and Kaiten average was 799.

The parses are not very accurate and fafnir can spawn at different levels but it gives an idea. The question I couldn't answer myself is whether Gekko attack is capped on such a high level mob but I would guess almost certainly not.

tl;dr - Amano sam has no real use for osode in terms of pure damage as any situation you'd use gekko then brynie +1 would be superior (assuming no bard). Obviously gekko has uses outside of pure damage such as closing a skillchain if you happen to get tp just after another WS has been used which could open darkness.

Ya, that's basically what I'm after, don't have an Amano yet, but may in the near future, and I was wondering on the value of keeping Osode/Smilo+1, or just WSing in Byrnie+1/Foragers if I do use Gekko. I guess I can see the skillchain Argument, but with how rare that is/etc, seems like I may as well just WS in Usu body on low/normal def mobs, and put the 2.4mil towards another job.

[Kirschy]

I just realized my link didn't really respond to this correctly, but your stats are off on that also Kirschy. Usu Body has 8 STR, so its 2dex, 2str, -3delay, 6stp vs 12attack, 2DA. But ya, my link only shows Sword beating Pole. As for the last question, whenever I have a cor planning to Sam roll (Ein seems to be the only place), then I use Pole Grip. I haven't actually worked out the math on the chances of various roll values, but iirc it goes from a 8 to a 7 needed to have a 5hit, which just eyeballing seems like it will destroy whatever a Sword Grip can offer.

Yea Sword Strap > Pole I knew, but I wasn't sure how much the attack+ made up for the difference between them. And yea wow, I dunno how I forgot Usu Body has 8STR on it.

2STR, 2DEX, -3% Delay, 6sTP vs 12 Attack, 2% DA

Let me use your Pole Strap vs Sword Strap calculations to refine my question~

TP:
Usu/Sword - 3.10% more swings
Haub+1/Pole - 1.74% more swings
Total: 1.36% more swings + 2STR vs Attack+12

WS:
Sword - 3.1% more WS
Pole - 1.74% more WS, +.87% dmg from DA+2% = 2.61%
Total - .49% more damage on WS vs null

So given this situation where acc is capped from pizza, /war, and no rolls. And that meditate factors in somewhere, which only gains from DA+ strap. How much increase in damage am I looking at from using Usu/Sword vs Haub+1/Pole. (I know our attack/pdif functions aren't perfect, just looking for an estimate like you did /w the other values~)

I'm know it's better, I just want to know how much better~

[Killkenny]

Ya, that's basically what I'm after, don't have an Amano yet, but may in the near future, and I was wondering on the value of keeping Osode/Smilo+1, or just WSing in Byrnie+1/Foragers if I do use Gekko. I guess I can see the skillchain Argument, but with how rare that is/etc, seems like I may as well just WS in Usu body on low/normal def mobs, and put the 2.4mil towards another job.

If I went back now I'd do Yoichi over Amano. Based on a few talks I had with Drace it seems Yoichi is completely broken in terms of what you can do. I really enjoyed Amano and used it a lot, but it always hung in the back of my mind that I probably could've done almost equal damage with a Perdu Voulge war had I meritted GA and obtained a few extra pieces of gear. Whereas a Yoichi Sam/Drg could noticably beat anything else in the game with proper support.

Obvious downsides to yoichi would be the fairly substantial amount more it costs. It wouldn't allow you to tank really but I think its potential on Sam is still very underrated and Namas is not nearly as weak as its made out (especially in comparison to Kaiten in lower attack situations).

[FailureMidgard]

Yea Sword Strap > Pole I knew, but I wasn't sure if the attack+ made up for the difference between them. And yea wow, I dunno how I forgot Usu Body has 8STR on it.

2STR, 2DEX, -3% Delay, 6sTP vs 12 Attack, 2% DA

Let me use your Pole Strap vs Sword Strap calculations to refine my question~

TP:
Usu/Sword - 3.10% more swings
Haub+1/Pole - 1.74% more swings
Total: 1.36% more swings + 2STR vs Attack+12

WS:
Sword - 3.1% more WS
Pole - 1.74% more WS, +.87% dmg from DA+2% = 2.61%
Total - .49% more damage on WS vs null

So given this situation where acc is capped from pizza, /war, and no rolls. And that meditate factors in somewhere, which only gains from DA+ strap. How much increase in damage am I looking at from using Usu/Sword vs Haub+1/Pole. (I know our attack/pdif functions aren't perfect, just looking for an estimate like you did /w the other values~)

I'm know it's better, I just want to know how much better~

Well, my str in TP is 75 base as hume sam/war with 5 merits, then +17-19 (you left your ear off, I assume you don't have a Bushi though?) on gear, we'll call it 92 STR. GColibri have 67 vit, puts fSTR at ~7ish. Base damage is 75, so we're looking at ~82 D, the higher VIT the mob gets, the more this will favor Sword Strap (which should already win), so I feel G Colibri is a pretty decent base point here. Thus, the fSTR is .5/82 = .61% increase to TP damage. It's also 1.5 attack, so we'll subtract that off.
Standard average attack is going to be at least 500 with berserk averaged in and food, 550 easily with a single attack buff.
10.5/550 = 1.91%, this is for an equal level mob though, after level correction it's ~1.2x that, or 2.29% increase.
Subtracting off the .61 that leaves 1.68% increase to TP damage. Subtracting 1.36 we get .32% increase to TP damage.

So, assuming a 550 attack average on a 67 VIT mob, we're looking at .32% increase to TP damage vs .49% increase to WS damage, and this is not counting the dex at all. If you can use the dex (under acc cap), then that's another .75/~94=.8% TP and WS damage. And again, higher than 67 vit or higher than 550 attack will both favor Sword+Usu.

[FailureMidgard]

If I went back now I'd do Yoichi over Amano. Based on a few talks I had with Drace it seems Yoichi is completely broken in terms of what you can do. I really enjoyed Amano and used it a lot, but it always hung in the back of my mind that I probably could've done almost equal damage with a Perdu Voulge war had I meritted GA and obtained a few extra pieces of gear. Whereas a Yoichi Sam/Drg could noticably beat anything else in the game with proper support.

Obvious downsides to yoichi would be the fairly substantial amount more it costs. It wouldn't allow you to tank really but I think its potential on Sam is still very underrated and Namas is not nearly as weak as its made out (especially in comparison to Kaiten in lower attack situations).

Yea, I'm a little torn, but the ~30-40mil difference is pretty huge, and I do like playing sam as a tank type job (salvage/etc). I dunno :/

[Kirschy]

So, assuming a 550 attack average on a 67 VIT mob, we're looking at .32% increase to TP damage vs .49% increase to WS damage, and this is not counting the dex at all.

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks~