Random Question Thread V: But does it 6-hit

[Firedemon]

Nevermind, should have posted in other thread.

[ringthree]

Hence why I didn't say the article was right, just that the two stack >_>

Please provide confirmation of this.

I have edited the page to return it to what it was before. If they do stack, just provide the confirmation and it can be changed again. The fact that someone said you can get 9 swings in a round made me question all of the revisions.

[Byrthnoth]

I think he just means that DA can proc on attacks where Occasionally Attacks X doesn't proc (or vice versa), like the example I gave. Has anyone seen a Triple Attack with Joyeuse? (PLD with Homam Body?)
8 has been the attack round maximum forever, so whoever wrote that on wiki needs to put down the crack pipe.

Also, recently I've been thinking about Aymur as a BST weapon. It's obvious that in any kind of merit situation it's going to fail compared to Guttler, but solo it looks like it might win. Because BST was most fun for me solo, I don't regard this as such a horrible thing. Still, I was only a 68 BST (almost 69!!) before I got banned. Do any more experienced BSTs have an opinion on this?

Here's the basic math:

Spoiler: show

Aymur, BST/DNC:
1.525*FLOOR(8.1*1.06,.1)/[312*.77/60] = 3.24 TP/sec
1.525*50/[312*.77/60] = 19.0 DPS (Aymur)

1.05*FLOOR(7.4*1.06,.1)/[280*.77/60] = 2.28 TP/sec
1.05*53/[280*.77/60] = 15.5 DPS (Guttler)

Aymur's TP rate means every 120 seconds it can do one 100TP (52.5% DA) Rampage and one 300TP Primal Rend.
Guttler's TP rate means every 120 seconds it can do about 2.7x 100TP (5% DA) WSs of choice. Onslaught would probably do crappy damage but give a cool Acc boost. Rampage would do respectable damage. Primal Rend might do the best damage, depending.

Unaccounted for:
1) 50% Pet Double Attack (unconfirmed but assumed) is the single biggest thing Aymur offers to a BST/DNC.
2) Guttler's +20 Attack - Pushes it towards Guttler. Matters less the more attack you have.
3) Onslaught's +10% Attack - If you use it, this pushes it towards Guttler. Matters less the more attack you have.
4) Pet Attack Bonus - Unknown potency, unknown effect. Going to favor Aymur.
5) fSTR is going to push the battle very slightly towards Aymur.
6) Enhances Sic - We have absolutely no idea what this does. Assumption is that it's TP bonus for pet weaponskills, or possibly it lets them WS before they have 100TP. How it would interact with Ready is also unknown. No matter what it does though, it probably won't have much impact on this.
7) 2.5x Procs on Guttler - Obviously make it a little better.

[Omniyoji]

Random (and stupid) question: Do Wamouracampa have physical damage reduction or insane defense or something like that?

I'm no melee and it's also been forever since I've last fought one, but they have an offensive and defensive positions they switch from. When in defensive they take less magic damage (I assume melee too). They also have an def boost ability IIRC?

[ringthree]

I think he just means that DA can proc on attacks where Occasionally Attacks X doesn't proc (or vice versa), like the example I gave. Has anyone seen a Triple Attack with Joyeuse? (PLD with Homam Body?)
8 has been the attack round maximum forever, so whoever wrote that on wiki needs to put down the crack pipe.

As I understand the situation, DA actually overwrites the "Occ. Attacks X times" proc. So the more DA you have the more likely you are to get a DA instead of extra attacks. This is of course hard to prove one way or the other, but it has been tested.

If Brutal Earring truly "stacked" with "Occ. Attacks X times" proc, that would mean that you would get a triple attack round.

Unless they meant that it added into the proc of the "Occ. Attacks X times" weapon. Or if Joyeuse had a base 50% proc, then adding more DA would increase the amount of 2 times rounds to 55% instead of 52.5% (if Brutal Earring really does increase DA by 5% which is generally accepted but very hard to test).

[Byrthnoth]

I can't find the post, but recently I'm pretty sure someone parsed Brutal Earring at almost exactly 5% DA (from 0%) at a very high degree of accuracy in either the Crit Hit or Seigan thread.

Starr's use of the word "stacks" is a little different than what either of us would use, but it also seems likely that we're all talking about the same thing. DA and Occasional Attacks X are mutually exclusive, and there's evidence (from Ridill and KC) to indicate that DA takes priority over a multi-proc (but it doesn't matter with an Occasionally Attacks Twice weapon).

Maximum number of attacks with Brutal and Joyeuse is 2. Maximum number of attacks with Justice and Brutal is 4 (right?). Maximum number of attacks with Justice/Joyeuse and Brutal is 6. Maximum number of attacks with Liberator and Brutal is 2?

[ringthree]

I can't find the post, but recently I'm pretty sure someone parsed Brutal Earring at almost exactly 5% DA (from 0%) at a very high degree of accuracy in either the Crit Hit or Seigan thread.

Starr's use of the word "stacks" is a little different than what either of us would use, but it also seems likely that we're all talking about the same thing. DA and Occasional Attacks X are mutually exclusive, and there's evidence (from Ridill and KC) to indicate that DA takes priority over a multi-proc (but it doesn't matter with an Occasionally Attacks Twice weapon).

Maximum number of attacks with Brutal and Joyeuse is 2. Maximum number of attacks with Justice and Brutal is 4 (right?). Maximum number of attacks with Justice/Joyeuse and Brutal is 6. Maximum number of attacks with Liberator and Brutal is 2?

I may be incorrect about this, but I thought max with Justice/Brutal was 3.

I agree with the rest of what you are saying, and I changed the wiki to reflect this.

[Darte]

So if i'm reading this right, Brutal *does* help increase the frequency of double attacks with joytoy (which I wasn't sure it did, but made sense if it did)?
Guess i got something else to wear on my cor then.

[homerun]

On the topic of brutal and joyeuse, is there a threshold acc % that brutal would lose to an acc earring (assault, hollow, suppa, ect)?

[ringthree]

So if i'm reading this right, Brutal *does* help increase the frequency of double attacks with joytoy (which I wasn't sure it did, but made sense if it did)?
Guess i got something else to wear on my cor then.

It does, but not as much as on a weapon that does not also have an "Occ. Att. X times" effect. It appears DA is calculated at a separate part of the equation than "Occ. Att. X times" procs, with OAXT procs being calculated first and if it procs then DA can not proc. Which means that on 50% of your attacks with a Joyeuse DA will not be able to proc. even if it should have gone off. If Brutal Earring is 5% (see above for evidence that it does) and assuming Joyeuse is 50% then you would only see a 2.5% increase in swings because half of the DA procs from Brutal Earring would be ignored because of Joyeuse's OAXT proc.

[Thorny]

I may be incorrect about this, but I thought max with Justice/Brutal was 3.

As much as I hate to agree with ringthree, he's right here.

[Kazo]

just augmented fire staff for rng, i got critical hit rate +1.
would that only apply to fire staff's critical hit rate or would it benefit my ranged attacks also?

[Nightfyre]

disregard

[Thorny]

In regards to TP phase only:

(hitrate+x%)/hitrate = 102.5, solve for hitrate.

X is your hitrate increase from the respective accuracy earring. 102.5 comes from 2.5% DA rate from Brutal Earring (effectively halved due to 50% Joyeuse DA rate). ACC earring wins below this value, Brutal above. Note that the actual value where an ACC earring begins to lose to Brutal is actually slightly higher than this equation yields due to TP overflow not really contributing to Atonement damage and Brutal contributing to said overflow at a (very low) rate.

It's not 102.5 though.. 100 rounds with joyeuse no DA will get you 150 expected swings. With brutal, this goes to 152.5 expected swings, 152.5/150 = 1.01666. With /war and brutal, it's 155 expected swings, 157.5 with brutal. 157.5/155 = 1.0161.

[Onorgul]

just augmented fire staff for rng, i got critical hit rate +1.
would that only apply to fire staff's critical hit rate or would it benefit my ranged attacks also?

I would bet that it only applies to the staff itself but testing something as miniscule as Critical Hit Rate +1 could take several hundred thousand strikes.

[Nightfyre]

On the topic of brutal and joyeuse, is there a threshold acc % that brutal would lose to an acc earring (assault, hollow, suppa, ect)?

Brutal Earring is effectively a 1.01666% increase to DA rate (1.525/1.5 due to Joyeuse @ 50%) with Joyeuse (adjust if /war), so...

(hitrate+x)/hitrate = 1.01666*hitrate

x is your hitrate increase from the earring. Both x and hitrate need to be expressed as decimals (0.02 for 2% increase in hitrate, for example). Solving for hitrate:

hitrate + x = 1.01666*hitrate^2

1.01666*(hitrate)^2 - hitrate - x = 0

Basic quadratic equation. One of the result values should be negative and thus obviously false, the other is the hitrate above which Brutal is superior and at/below your acc earring is better.

It's not 102.5 though.. 100 rounds with joyeuse no DA will get you 150 expected swings. With brutal, this goes to 152.5 expected swings, 152.5/150 = 1.01666. With /war and brutal, it's 155 expected swings, 157.5 with brutal. 157.5/155 = 1.0161.

See, this is why I hate melee math I always have to do it twice, even though it's just basic algebra. Guess you caught it before the delete though. The above look right?

EDIT: That makes Suppa/Hollow or Suppa/ACP Hollow copy better than Suppa/Brutal for Joytoy TP whenever you can make full use of the accuracy, ie 93% hitrate and below.

[Wolfknight]

It's not 102.5 though.. 100 rounds with joyeuse no DA will get you 150 expected swings. With brutal, this goes to 152.5 expected swings, 152.5/150 = 1.01666. With /war and brutal, it's 155 expected swings, 157.5 with brutal. 157.5/155 = 1.0161.

Not that it matters whole lot, but I thought joyeuse was 45% DA not 50% DA?

[Jordaan]

What program is used to see the list of mobs in a particular zone?
Is dat swapping mob names difficult? And if not, how?

[Rocl]

What program is used to see the list of mobs in a particular zone?
Is dat swapping mob names difficult? And if not, how?

Don't know how other people do it, but I use Pebble's POLUtilities. It's how I peruse all the .DAT files, it's even got it's own handy NPC Renamer button

[Thorny]

Not that it matters whole lot, but I thought joyeuse was 45% DA not 50% DA?

50% is a prettier number and i have yet to see an accurate test showing it was 45(nor 50 for that matter, so it could be). Some idiot did <1000 swings and started flaunting that the DA weapons aren't 50% iirc, which is where the 45% number came from..