Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

[Sanjiyan]

Fixed.

Khimaira fainted!

[Spider-Dan]

No, the game doesn't figure the best I've told it what to do through in a given situation by scripting. So thus I must have to know how day/night/weather etc must be working.

False.

Spellcast detects day/night/weather/etc. automatically and will equip pre-defined sets based on those conditions. So all you have to do is script what you have and when it should be used, and Spellcast will automatically determine what the current conditions are and select the correct gear to use (as pre-defined by you) in that situation.

The key difference between that and, say, windower scripts, is that Spellcast independently uses logic to determine which gearset to equip. When you are using windower scripts, you have to specify "use ice weather gear" or "use HP latent gear" or "use nighttime gear" at the time you are using it. With Spellcast, you just tell it "perform action x" and it figures out all of those things for you, then equips gear accordingly.

This is before getting into incredibly bot-like actions like:

Changing Spells

In FFXI when you attempt to cast Cure IV on someone who really needs it, but you are missing that one mp at the wrong time, you have to go back and attempt casting Cure III instead. Using ChangeSpell, you can automate this and have SpellCast cast lower levels of spells when you don't have enough MP for the first one.

You make the decision to cast a specific spell (a bad decision, but a decision nonetheless). The plugin reads your status, discards that command, and substitutes a better one.

This is not "playing the game for you"?

[Shinta]

I swear, I heard the exact same responses in regards to WHM requesting they get their update, it was actually even worse most of the time. WHM can cure already, they don't need their update. What can you possibly give to WHM that wouldn't just break them? They already can cure just fine .... and on and on. I just hope that everyone insisting that BLM doesn't need an update doesn't just turn around and declare how needed it was when it's finally added, because that's exactly what always happens.

For the record, there is a ton of shit that SE could give BLM. At the very least, BLM should be able to sub SCH, because the job was advertised as the ultimate subjob for WHM and BLM 2 years ago. As you can see, it's a huge addition to WHM. All of the MP savings are percentage based, 10% from Light Arts, 50% from Penury, and all of BLM's spells cost a shitload more MP than WHM. So for BLM, being able to sub SCH would be even more of an impact. Currently, they can't sub it because they would lose gravity and stoneskin. BLM can't even use sublimation without some kind of native Stoneskin, which is one of the most powerful parts of the subjob. So at the VERY least, they need equivalent versions of those two spells asap, because this has been needed for two years. Personally, I've suggested new BLM stances where one of the effects is augmenting spike spells to also have a stoneskin effect when under one of their stances. Then add Curse as a new spell, that solves the stoneskin and gravity thing and they can sub SCH. That is the bare minimum needed.

Then after that, I could come up with a million different ideas about new things they could add that would just be fun but not gamebreaking. It's limitless really, from new spells, to a stance that "stores" information on how much damage they do and is used to power a new spell, to aspir II, to group casting meteor/ultima, to whatever.

The funniest part about listening to everyone compare SCH to BLM is that they're comparing 50% of one job to 100% of another. And the debate is going back and forth on whether that 50% overtakes the other job's 100%, with lots of people saying it does, and a few saying it doesn't overtake it but gets really close. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? SCH can also heal on par with a WHM and has an entire extra job sitting in their back pocket, not even counting the additional SCH-only spells/abilities. BLM definitely needs something if they are that close to being overtaken by a job that is only doing half of what it is capable of.

[Gergall]

The funniest part about listening to everyone compare SCH to BLM is that they're comparing 50% of one job to 100% of another. And the debate is going back and forth on whether that 50% overtakes the other job's 100%, with lots of people saying it does, and a few saying it doesn't overtake it but gets really close. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? SCH can also heal on par with a WHM and has an entire extra job sitting in their back pocket, not even counting the additional SCH-only spells/abilities. BLM definitely needs something if they are that close to being overtaken by a job that is only doing half of what it is capable of.

I really enjoyed reading this paragraph. I have so much trouble explaining this concept to people.

[Cymmina]

The funniest part about listening to everyone compare SCH to BLM is that they're comparing 50% of one job to 100% of another. And the debate is going back and forth on whether that 50% overtakes the other job's 100%, with lots of people saying it does, and a few saying it doesn't overtake it but gets really close. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? SCH can also heal on par with a WHM and has an entire extra job sitting in their back pocket, not even counting the additional SCH-only spells/abilities. BLM definitely needs something if they are that close to being overtaken by a job that is only doing half of what it is capable of.

No, they cure on par with a RDM. Rapture is not a replacement for Cure V, not even close. Also, weaker bar spell potency and no Shellra V/Devotion.

You speak like SCH has unlimited MP/stratagems and distorts space and time to be able to do all of the things they're capable of doing over the course of every single fight.

I should also point out, because it is commonly missed, that Manifestation/Accession doubles the cost, cast time and recharge of your next spell. That means 60 seconds without Sleep/Sleep II if you want a Sleepga/Sleepga II, 2 minutes without Gravity, etc. Unless you want to throw in an Alacrity/Celerity with that...

[Gergall]

You speak like SCH has unlimited MP/stratagems and distorts space and time to be able to do all of the things they're capable of doing over the course of every single fight.

No he doesn't. He said that SCH is pretty much on par with BLM, and then on top of that they have the ability to do something completely different, very effectively. He said they master one job while having a whole other job "in their back pocket". That hardly implies that they use both in the same fight/event.

Although sometimes they do. They can switch functionality in salvage, ks99 wyrm, sometimes even einherjar.

[Aristio]

No, they cure on par with a RDM. Rapture is not a replacement for Cure V, not even close. Also, weaker bar spell potency and no Shellra V/Devotion

I wish we had something that gave any kind of "refresh" to anyone....

Like this:

Summa Cum-Laude
5 Minute ability
Gives a fully charged sublimation to party members in range at the cost of a strategem.

Or a "haste"...
Quicken
Level 49 spell
Lowers recast of JA by 20%.

Breaks the job entirely into a million pieces, then breaks those pieces into a bazillion more, but would be epic of the massive Q_Q from everyone.

[requim]

Yes BSTs can use the same heavy armor as WARs and DRKs however compared to them and other DDs they have nothing to boost their damage output outside of pets.

It's a fucking pet job that can also equip the best DD gear in the game, I fail to see how this is unfair. Use an EM pet and parse its damage, it does a lot. Take a look at the gear options for a bst vs a pup. Pup's only DD advantage is that it always has a solid pet around it, whereas bst is gimped by the environments of end game.

What bst actually lacks is useful areas with convenient DC-EM pets and that their pets can't really stack haste gear. Plus, next to no corsair would ever give you bst or pup roll so you basically have a very well geared one hander lacking a few JTs or JAs plus a pet competing against balls to the walls buffed other DDs.

By far the biggest boost a bst could get is if it always, always had access to a charmable EM mob, so in that direction if more areas get some of these types of mobs (ideally with non-useless sics) bst could easily improve its popularity.

[Yugl]

Yes, you don't NEED to solo to 75 since it's possible to join a PT as BLM. That said, in this era where TP burns are prevalent and Colibris dominate the XP scene, it's very rare for a BLM to find themselves within a PT setting. In the few cases that they do, chances are they're the type of people who you don't want to XP with in the first place.

Edit: This was in response to the person on the last page. As for the SCH v BLM debate, you can talk about SCH's cure abilities all you want, but a good SCH knows the limitations in gear, MP, and charges will make him inadequately play both the healing and nuking role. Chances are that if you're inviting a SCH for both positions, you have an extra nuker or an extra healer anyways. That in combination with the reasons why comparing them on two different roles is stupid (See my previous posts in this thread) means you're coming up short with convincing reasons as to why BLM is in peril.

[Altanass]

everytime i hope for a blm update, i dont hope to see job fixes. I'm one of those people who watched the opening fmv back in the day and have been a subscriber for years hoping that one day we would get comet, meteor or ultima ;-/

[Corrderio]

It's a fucking pet job that can also equip the best DD gear in the game, I fail to see how this is unfair. Use an EM pet and parse its damage, it does a lot. Take a look at the gear options for a bst vs a pup. Pup's only DD advantage is that it always has a solid pet around it, whereas bst is gimped by the environments of end game.

What bst actually lacks is useful areas with convenient DC-EM pets and that their pets can't really stack haste gear. Plus, next to no corsair would ever give you bst or pup roll so you basically have a very well geared one hander lacking a few JTs or JAs plus a pet competing against balls to the walls buffed other DDs.

By far the biggest boost a bst could get is if it always, always had access to a charmable EM mob, so in that direction if more areas get some of these types of mobs (ideally with non-useless sics) bst could easily improve its popularity.

Yes I'm aware it's a pet job however you have next to no control for you jug pets other than what to summon.

[Doink]

Usually when on on SCH, I find my self using Ebullience to be able to keep up with BLMs on nukes.

I dunno if its like that for all SCHs, but it seems you either get a choice between MP cost or Potency. I guess you could do both, but then you will be nuking less often waiting for your charges to reset.

So even though SCH can do compairable numbers to BLM, they are really limited by Stratagems charges.

You'll never win in an epeen fight with a blm. Ebullience is for Modas Veritas helix's only imo.

[Shinta]

No he doesn't. He said that SCH is pretty much on par with BLM, and then on top of that they have the ability to do something completely different, very effectively. He said they master one job while having a whole other job "in their back pocket". That hardly implies that they use both in the same fight/event.

Although sometimes they do. They can switch functionality in salvage, ks99 wyrm, sometimes even einherjar.

Thank you, that's exactly what I meant. I thought the whole "50%" thing would have been enough of an indicator of what I was talking about. I even said at the end that "BLM definitely needs something if they are that close to being overtaken by a job that is only doing half of what it is capable of."

As for the SCH v BLM debate, you can talk about SCH's cure abilities all you want, but a good SCH knows the limitations in gear, MP, and charges will make him inadequately play both the healing and nuking role. Chances are that if you're inviting a SCH for both positions, you have an extra nuker or an extra healer anyways. That in combination with the reasons why comparing them on two different roles is stupid (See my previous posts in this thread) means you're coming up short with convincing reasons as to why BLM is in peril.

I'm not talking about them playing both at the same time. Even if you use the stances one at a time, it doesn't mean you don't have both stances. I'm not sure how you can not compare them on two different roles. That's the premise of the entire job. No one here is talking about a SCH beating a WHM and a BLM at the same time while doing backflips and casting Utsusemi: San .... well okay, no one but this guy.

You speak like SCH has unlimited MP/stratagems and distorts space and time to be able to do all of the things they're capable of doing over the course of every single fight.

[Yugl]

I'm not talking about them playing both at the same time. Even if you use the stances one at a time, it doesn't mean you don't have both stances. I'm not sure how you can not compare them on two different roles. That's the premise of the entire job. No one here is talking about a SCH beating a WHM and a BLM at the same time while doing backflips and casting Utsusemi: San .... well okay, no one but this guy.

My post about the limitations stemmed from your last quote, so if you didn't mean that, then that's fine. However, the rest I addressed in my post on page seven. In short, I've already pointed out that BLM's role in a PT is not short circuited in a PT because of the presence of SCH, and, to suggest a class needs an update because of the irrelevant abilities of another class has implications for other classes that I think many of us would disagree with.

Edit: Looking back at your posts on this page, I can easily see how someone could mistake your argument for including the ability to shift roles mid-fight. Nothing mentioned in your last few posts excludes that interpretation.

[Shin Volcano]

everytime i hope for a blm update, i dont hope to see job fixes. I'm one of those people who watched the opening fmv back in the day and have been a subscriber for years hoping that one day we would get comet, meteor or ultima ;-/

GOD DAMN IT!!! /rage!!!!!!

just UGH! "Explodes"

[Shinta]

Looking back at your posts on this page, I can easily see how someone could mistake your argument for including the ability to shift roles mid-fight. Nothing mentioned in your last few posts excludes that interpretation.

Nothing except the fact that I just posted specifically to explain that interpreting my post that way was incorrect?

I thought the whole "50%" thing would have been enough of an indicator of what I was talking about. I even said at the end that "BLM definitely needs something if they are that close to being overtaken by a job that is only doing half of what it is capable of."

I'm not talking about them playing both at the same time.

to suggest a class needs an update because of the irrelevant abilities of another class has implications for other classes that I think many of us would disagree with.

So the entirety of Light Arts, 50% of the SCH job, is irrelevant? I don't understand how you can say that. That's like me saying that it's okay for BLM to be able to melee better than a SAM, as long as they don't do that and nuke at the same time. I mean hell, if that's okay, we can update BLM 10x and make them a tank and buffing job too, as long as they can't do it at the same time. Let's have it so that they can switch between any role in the game with a new JA, but it has a 4 minute recast, the same as all 4 of SCH's strategems.

[Yugl]

Nothing except the fact that I just posted specifically to explain that interpreting my post that way was incorrect?

Are you dense? You simply stated that SCH can heal on par with WHM (A laughable statement in itself) and has an extra class in its back pocket (BLM presumably) with additional JAs. Nothing about this denotes a distinction between saying SCH can heal with the potential to nuke mid-fight and SCH can heal for one event and nuke at another.

To put this more simply, if I say that SAM can melee as well as WAR and has another class in its back pocket (Lets say Tanking as an arbitrary example), does this mean I'm necessarily saying SAM has to choose between tanking and DDing at an event? Not quite. Hence, there is ambiguity in this statement.

Your second quote only explicitly clarified the situation AFTER my post. Furthermore, in my edit I meant to type "nothing mentioned except your last few posts excludes that interpretation".

So the entirety of Light Arts, 50% of the SCH job, is irrelevant? I don't understand how you can say that. That's like me saying that it's okay for BLM to be able to melee better than a SAM, as long as they don't do that and nuke at the same time. I mean hell, if that's okay, we can update BLM 10x and make them a tank and buffing job too, as long as they can't do it at the same time. Let's have it so that they can switch between any role in the game with a new JA, but it has a 4 minute recast, the same as all 4 of SCH's strategems.

It's very easy to say that when you think about it. Unless said class is going to replace you by being so much better and so much more abundant that your class has no chance of making into the alliance or offering services that will let you reduce the amount of members needed while fulfilling your role, it's of little significance. I've already posted my reasoning for why SCH's MP conservation isn't a surmounting challenge on page seven. It's quite obvious that SCH is not in abundance. As pointed earlier, it's unlikely that using a SCH over a BLM will save you a PT slot due to limitations. Thus, SCH is not a significant challenge to BLM as of yet.

On a more concrete notion, look at your examples. They're stupid for the sole reason that you explicitly state BLM better than SAM at meleeing. In the SCH v BLM contest, we know that SCH has better MP conservation, but that doesn't necessarily denote being the better nuker in every event. Hence, you're trying to tie a fact with a disputable term. If you have any doubts about this, take them up with my previous post since I'm not up for repeating it. If we are to suggest that secondary feature are essential in comparison, then I could say that NIN needs an update because BLU is capable of tanking (And I'm aware NIN can too) and curing in addition to being just under NIN's DD potential. Before you answer this, note that I'm specifically stating NIN needs an update because of BLU; I'm not speaking in a general perspective with relation to anything but BLU.

[Shinta]

Are you dense? You simply stated that SCH can heal on par with WHM (A laughable statement in itself)

How is this a laughable statement? They have basically everything except Shellra V, and Cure V. In everything but endgame fights, Cure V isn't even needed. They are actually far better than WHM at removing AoE Paralyze, Petrification, and Silence. They also have Regenga II and Stoneskinga. I think they're easily the second best healer in the game, and a close second that actually surpasses the 1st place job in several areas. They're the only job besides WHM that can Protectra and Shellra a group, and in fact, they can even Protectra/Shellra/Curaga other parties when WHM can't. WHM can't Phalanx-ga either.

and has an extra class in its back pocket (BLM presumably) with additional JAs. Nothing about this denotes a distinction between saying SCH can heal with the potential to nuke mid-fight and SCH can heal for one event and nuke at another.

there is ambiguity in this statement.

Your second quote only explicitly clarified the situation AFTER my post.

Okay, not to borrow one of your best lines, but I'm wondering about your density as well. My post that was AFTER, was just me quoting myself on shit I said BEFORE your post. The reason I did it was because it is a post of me going well out of my way to clear up any amiguity, confusion, misunderstandings, and yet, you still managed to insist on misunderstanding it. I will try one last time here and see if it sticks.

I'm not talking about stance-swapping constantly in the same fight.

I hope this puts the ambiguity issues to rest once and for all. Here on out, any confusion is due to your insistence on purposely muddling a very simple statement, or your inability to grasp something when told about it 3 times. Moving on ....

It's very easy to say that when you think about it. Unless said class is going to replace you by being so much better and so much more abundant that your class has no chance of making into the alliance or offering services that will let you reduce the amount of members needed while fulfilling your role, it's of little significance. I've already posted my reasoning for why SCH's MP conservation isn't a surmounting challenge on page seven. It's quite obvious that SCH is not in abundance. As pointed earlier, it's unlikely that using a SCH over a BLM will save you a PT slot due to limitations. Thus, SCH is not a significant challenge to BLM as of yet.

I take this as an endorsement of my 4 minute JA idea for BLM, as long as their tank form is slightly worse than PLD and NIN (but possibly better in one or two areas), and the same goes for their buffing form in relation to COR and BRD, and their DD form in relation to every other job.

[Spider-Dan]

So the entirety of Light Arts, 50% of the SCH job, is irrelevant? I don't understand how you can say that. That's like me saying that it's okay for BLM to be able to melee better than a SAM, as long as they don't do that and nuke at the same time.

Actually, it's more like saying that it's OK for DNC to be not-quite-as-good-a-DD-as-THF when they have the option to switch into another mode and be not-quite-as-good-a-healer-as-WHM.

Dark Arts SCH is not going to put BLM out of a job, and Light Arts SCH isn't going to put WHM out of a job. Being able to switch from also-ran to other, more different also-ran is not really a problem that Must Be Addressed.

How is this a laughable statement? They have basically everything except Shellra V, and Cure V.

I have been advised that the spell "Haste" is frequently considered to be of some importance. My understanding is that the person normally responsible for casting this spell is usually also performing the role of main healer.

In everything but endgame fights, Cure V isn't even needed. They are actually far better than WHM at removing AoE Paralyze, Petrification, and Silence. They also have Regenga II and Stoneskinga. I think they're easily the second best healer in the game, and a close second that actually surpasses the 1st place job in several areas.

So I guess RDM does not count for purposes of this discussion? Or are we just completely ignoring all exp/merit parties and non-alliance events?

[barber2006]

Dark Arts SCH is not going to put BLM out of a job,

To be fair, the primary reason SCH won't put blm out of a job is because there are a dozen blms for every sch. Everybody and their momma has blm leveled because once upon a time gathering 17 blms was a cheap DM win, AM rocked crabs in the tree, manaburn dynamis was cool, etc. If the shoe were on the other foot and sch was 7 years old and blm was 2 years old there really wouldn't be any reason for anyone to level blm now at all other than to take screenshots of a fafnir MB to put in the fapworthy damage thread.


As far as this update is concerned I don't really see anything happening. If someone has rng leveled and has any 2h DD job leveled they will still only bring rng out for odin/ixion/jol/ACP. If they don't have drk I guess you could add dynamis lord and Bv2 to that list. Nobody will level bst because of the +10 defense gear they give jugs or whatever it will be. And even if summoner gets a new avatar they will still have to astral burn to 75 just to have a marginal place at khim and maybe 1-2 other events.

Just as with ninja, job updates don't mean job balancing. Unfortunately, it just means a new toy for people unwilling to level the more efficient job.