Bard: Chr vs Skill vs Macc?

[Antithesis]

Spoiler: show

I suck. Mkay, is that all?

I was worried you thought a lack of cures from a bard during a kirin burn was actually a hazard.


I guess you're not as stupid as I thought.


I'll be over here giving a shit about what you think of my preference to not use oils and to not have to sleep agro.


Have an awesome day, Chief. And remember, you're awesome, and I suck.



Oh and for anyone wondering why this pissant drama is even making it on the boards; mah boy Sensui over here was at the run in question but apparently lacks the testicular fortitude to man the fuck up and say anything in person, or during the run, because that's how he rolls, and don't you dare question him because he's awesome, and he's just reminding me that I suck.

You really need to learn how to troll. Better yet, don't post anymore.

[barber2006]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Every time I talk to another brain-dead BRD, they rattle off how horrible string skill is - I've even been told that its half as accurate as wind skill.

No. Just...no.

String is not THAT bad. Your just not properly geared for it. In which case, the real answer isn't 'String Instruments suck', but rather (and more specifically toward lullabies) 'you suck at AOE sleeping' - which is the whole point.

It's not a debate about which is more accurate. We already know there is more Wind Skill in the game, via gear and via merits (if you choose to do so). Wind will always be more accurate due to that reason.

I can appreciate you encouraging people to gear for string if they are going to use string. I think it is one of the major shortcomings of people who have had terrible experiences with string.


However, if you are saying gear and merits are the only reasons wind is more accurate than string you are mistaken. Wind is inherently more accurate than string. As you say, string is not 'half as accurate'. But even without merits and gear wind is noticeably more accurate than string. A naked bard and a zone line throwing lullabies on aura statues or a brd wearing just a staff in COP dynamis areas will be able to notice that VERY quickly. The best way to test this is actually abraxas in lufaise with only a staff and a instrument. You will see within a few casts what is better......but make sure hymnus is up.



One thing I did like about your post was going against the dogmatic norms. However, just like once upon a time people shouted "CHR matters, skill does nothing", now you have just as many people shouting "Take CHR to the point of diminishing returns then stack skill". Only problem is, that if brd debuffs use a formula similar to enfeebling magic or elemental magic then you should technically stack skill over CHR ALWAYS (assuming you can get more skill in that slot than CHR). Even if you have 60 CHR Choral Cannion +1 (8 skill) will outperform errant slops (7 CHR) since unlike paralyze, the potency doesn't change on elegy with more CHR. It's all about getting it to land.


The thing that further cracks me up is that those that use this argument have often found the 'point of diminishing returns' and it is always some magic number like 120. Never mind the fact that different mobs have different CHR levels and that the debuff formula no doubt takes the difference of user CHR to target CHR......no no, its ALWAYS 120. After that stack skill.


The bottom line is that in 7 years NOBODY has come close to determining what the debuff formula for elegy and lullaby is. CHR, singing skill, instrument skill, staves, and level all seem to play a noticeable part. But if someone tries to definitively stand up and say Goliard boots are better than Oracle's feet THEY ARE JUST GUESSING because a) nobody has adequately tested debuff factors and b) the difference would likely be too small to be able to differentiate without 1000's of tests.


Most of the time when people want to back up their divine understanding of a debuff formula for bard they do the same thing.......they list their gear. As if having a marduk body or shadow coat makes their opinion worth more.


Anyways......all that was a rant. The point is that wind is more accurate than string even without merits/gear.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Nursemaid's harp will always be better then mary's horn provided you don't get resisted on sleep.

In this day and age it shouldnt be to hard for a bard to get a gear set that makes sleeping with a harp a viable option for most day to day bard sleeping.

For everything else.

There is sleepga.

[Antithesis]

Nursemaid's harp will always be better then mary's horn provided you don't get resisted on sleep.

In this day and age it shouldnt be to hard for a bard to get a gear set that makes sleeping with a harp a viable option for most day to day bard sleeping.

For everything else.

There is sleepga.

And Sheep Song.

[Rainewaters]

Nursemaid's harp will always be better then mary's horn provided you don't get resisted on sleep.

In this day and age it shouldnt be to hard for a bard to get a gear set that makes sleeping with a harp a viable option for most day to day bard sleeping.

For everything else.

There is sleepga.

I'de have to disagree with you there. There are LOT more options for +wind skill out there then +string, making it easier to land sleep w/ the horn rather than the harp.
XD nice sig btw.

[Haroun]

It may be easier to land with wind, but it's not difficult by any means to put together a set that will reliably land Lullaby with Nursemaid's Harp on anything that you would be sleeping with Lullaby.

[Rainewaters]

It may be easier to land with wind, but it's not difficult by any means to put together a set that will reliably land Lullaby with Nursemaid's Harp on anything that you would be sleeping with Lullaby.

It's also more practical...I mean, every other instrument is wind, I don't see why you should have an inferior instrument as well as gear for that instrument just so the aoe is bigger...it makes no sense, when mary's horn is just as good if not better.

[Lahan]

To sum up stack skill and mag acc wherever you can and then go for CHR. You can test for yourself that horn is a bit more accurate than a harp That is why the harp is so cheep compared to mary's horn. With the gear in game you can crank your wind skill higher than you can crank your string skill so its better to just crank your wind. It may not be worth it to keep a few extra pieces just for a string build that is still lower than your wind build can be. I say save the space and go wind. Also remember it adds up singing to which ever instrument you use for a combined skill for some things so a little singing wont hurt if you can toss it in. If you are high enough over the mobs level/chr go for the harp if you want. I use the horn.

Most full time bards drop 8 merits in wind and singing and 5 in chr.

If it makes you feel any better, I did keep my sting skill caped just in case.

(side note I have always wanted to see a ballad +1 instrument and always thought it would be a harp)
(another side note I am a music teacher and always laughed when I got a singing skill up while playing a horn, too funny.)

[Lovex]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Every time I talk to another brain-dead BRD, they rattle off how horrible string skill is - I've even been told that its half as accurate as wind skill.

No. Just...no.

String is not THAT bad. Your just not properly geared for it. In which case, the real answer isn't 'String Instruments suck', but rather (and more specifically toward lullabies) 'you suck at AOE sleeping' - which is the whole point.

It's not a debate about which is more accurate. We already know there is more Wind Skill in the game, via gear and via merits (if you choose to do so). Wind will always be more accurate due to that reason.

The real issue here isn't so much resist rates either - When was the last time you needed to sleep a squad of Lullaby resistant mobs?

The real issue is just whether its worth it for most people to carry around an extra gear set to have a wider sleep area. Just equipping Harp and firing away isn't going to work. For most people - the answer is going to be no. That is the reason String sucks.



First: Alk BRD ranting on String? The accuracy difference you'd see in String vs Wind (baseline) is going to be very similar to Alk vs HQ Staves. Your making the jump for one, but not the other. Is the kettle black enough?

Second: Your so-called gear is pretty much maxed out. You'd only need to make some minor gear swaps to switch to a better-than-average string debuff build (I want a shadow coat...). And you can't land sleeps with harp? I call BS - your not trying.

This is the kind of crap that lead to BRDs forgoing all Skill for CHR for years (and even today). Instead of trying to understand and overcome, someone passes along some bogus rumor to avoid the issue entirely - and everyone else follows.



Then I guess I should be getting owned by dozens of mobs every time I mis-sleep a horde of mobs...
...funny - that hasn't happened yet.

It's quite clear YOU'RE a dumbass and a noob BRD.
First of all, Don't tell me how to play BRD, I could school you for days.

Second, I do have 8/8 HQ staffs(Which I use) but I'll use the Alka where my magic acc is high I might need more CHR.

The same moron preaching the greatness of a Nursemaids harpe rather than encouraging a brd to pick up a Marys Horn is telling other people string isn't that bad and telling people
to invest in a string+ setup for debuffs is saying I'm not trying? Lul.

Did you merit string skill too?

Did you just compare Alkaurops/HQ staffs to String and wind? LOL.
No one is contesting the magic accuracy on a high quality elemental staff is slightly
better than that of an Alka. However Alka can be situationally better than an HQ staff
depending on the mob and your setup. That is a fact.

Comparing that to String/Wind is silly. Especially if you have both to work in
depending on your setups. I'm guessing you don't have a marys horn, and use
Nursemaids harpe for sleeps. Nursemaids will last longer but String skill gear
is much harder to come by and has a MUCH LESS magical accuracy than a wind
skill setup. The Difference between the magic acc on alka compared to hq, for the most part, is not that much more and you get 10MNCHRINT as well.

Now you claim you can sleep most mobs with your nursemaids harpe. That is for either
2 reasons, You're not fighting anything of real significance for it to matter or you invested in a string+ setup and or merits.

Now if you're not fighting anything of real significance, and can land sleeps
on the mobs you encounter with your nursemaids, np at all. That is better than a marys.
It will last longer of course.

Now if you're fighting something of significance, where its crucial you lands sleeps
and its of high level nature (endgame,limbus,birds/mamool merit pts,HNM) and you invested in a string instrument skill setup, you for sure can invest and SHOULD have already invested
in a wind instrument skill setup.


Now back to nursemaids, any brd coming up, who invests in a nursemaids rather than a marys will notice (by quite a bit actually) the difference in using marys over nursemaids, if you disagree, you simply don't know.


Fact of the matter is, if you can invest in enough gear/merits to make string skill
almost equal (in actuality it wont ever be equal, let alone better) to your wind skill you can invest that much easier in a wind skill setup.


Nursemaids for the most part, is not and will never be better than a Marys Horn, for the same reason Alka wont beat HQ staffs in magic acc. Comparing Alka/HQ staff to Nursemaids/Marys Horn is silly, as Alka can situationally make up for its loss in a few magic acc on things that are significant. Nursemaids cannot. The difference between the amount of wind/string skill thats available is quite a bit.

I also would never encourage a brd to invest in an Alka before a Terra's staff.

As I said, I also used a Nursemaids, I thought "zomg it has +2 it has to be better". Not.
You can preach the glory of the Nursemaids/string all you like but you just sound stupid.


You say you have NP sleeping mobs, I know for a fact you're not speaking about general endgame mobs, and if you merited your string skill, you're an idiot and even if you didn't you sound like an idiot. Downplaying Marys and encouraging people to use Nursemaids is pretty lol.


Its one thing to get both and if you can get away with using nursemaids without any trouble in acc, then yeah, the extra seconds on the +2 are better but dont pretend you are speaking about merit pt/endgame mobs. I call bullshit on you if you are. I am positive your resist rate is much higher than that of any BRD with the same exact gear who wisely invested in a marys and wind skill rather than your l337 Nursemaids/string skill setup.


Suggesting string skill isn't that bad and encouraging it is just you trying to make others
as bad a player as you are.

You'd only need to make some minor gear swaps to switch to a better-than-average string debuff build

Lol........................ ; ; Poor thing.

Your "better-than-average" string setup can easily be trumped by a good wind skill debuff build, which is much easier to come by.

You wouldn't happen to cast songs like march,minuet,madrigal,elegy in string instruments as well would you? I had to ask >.>;

[Shenrien]

Wall of Text

cute.... but can I get the tl;dr version?

[Haroun]

You wouldn't happen to cast songs like march,minuet,madrigal,elegy in string instruments as well would you? I had to ask >.>;

If there was a string instrument with +3 March/Minuet/Madrigal/Elegy, yes. Wouldn't you?

[Antithesis]

You know, from all the rage that is coming from the people in this thread, I could swear that they think we are using Nursemaid's Harp for absolutely everything; When in fact, it is only being used for one song.

PS: I don't Therenody mobs with Sorrowful Harp if that closes the gap in your profusely-leaking vagina.

[erdoge]

Ok, I'm no brd expert but wich HNM fight requires to rely on a brd for sleeping?

Oh and I know Asmo personally, I used to be in his LS and never saw him having trouble sleeping anything that brd needed to sleepga (Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar)

[Viq]

It's also more practical...I mean, every other instrument is wind, I don't see why you should have an inferior instrument as well as gear for that instrument just so the aoe is bigger...it makes no sense, when mary's horn is just as good if not better.

A) It's two pieces of gear: String Torque and String Earring. Stack your regular m.acc/singing skill/CHR everywhere else.
B) It's bigger AoE and 3 extra seconds of duration.
C) If you can be at or near resist cap with Harp, there is zero reason to use Horn over it. This isn't 2004 anymore. You have access to Balrahn's, Light Grip, Goliard Clogs, etc. Landing Lullaby with Harp is very reliable on just about anything that isn't flat out resistant to light-based sleeps, so opting for less range and shorter durations is simply laziness/stubbornness/plain retarded in 2009.

[barber2006]

No one is contesting the magic accuracy on a high quality elemental staff is slightly
better than that of an Alka. However Alka can be situationally better than an HQ staff
depending on the mob and your setup. That is a fact.

If the magic accuracy is better on HQ staff......how exactly is alka better in any situation? For RDM I can see it as the extra INT/MND could add potency. But potency for unresisted elegy/lullaby is solely determined by the instrument. If HQ staff is more accurate how is alka EVER worth using?


The answer, of course, is that it isn't. But continues to be used for 2 reasons:

1) It's a rare and expensive drop that allows bards to differentiate themselves from the pack.

2) There is a misunderstanding about brd debuffs that flows from the dogmatic "Stack CHR until 120 then stack skill" mindset. Again, 20 Macc and 10 CHR will not beat 15% MACC whether you have 150 CHR in your debuff set or 20 CHR in your debuff set. Heck, HQ staves are the one and only piece of equipment that make a difference at all.

[Rainewaters]

A) It's two pieces of gear: String Torque and String Earring. Stack your regular m.acc/singing skill/CHR everywhere else.
B) It's bigger AoE and 3 extra seconds of duration.
C) If you can be at or near resist cap with Harp, there is zero reason to use Horn over it. This isn't 2004 anymore. You have access to Balrahn's, Light Grip, Goliard Clogs, etc. Landing Lullaby with Harp is very reliable on just about anything that isn't flat out resistant to light-based sleeps, so opting for less range and shorter durations is simply laziness/stubbornness/plain retarded in 2009.

I suppose it depends what kind of ls you're in. Mine, by the time the mobs even to to me, either the blms have already slept so there's no need for a large aoe. In merit pts, uhm...usually use single target unless at mamool, in which case, use horde if i somehow get resisted or the timer is down for single target.
And really...3 extra seconds of duration? that's hardly worth the praise everyone seems to be giving this harp...

[jimbobsonofgod]

1)Now if you're not fighting anything of real significance, and can land sleeps
on the mobs you encounter with your nursemaids, np at all. That is better than a marys.
It will last longer of course.

2)Now if you're fighting something of significance, where its crucial you lands sleeps
and its of high level nature (endgame,limbus,birds/mamool merit pts,HNM)


3)Nursemaids for the most part, is not and will never be better than a Marys Horn

4)You say you have NP sleeping mobs, I know for a fact you're not speaking about general endgame mobs, and if you merited your string skill, you're an idiot and even if you didn't you sound like an idiot. Downplaying Marys and encouraging people to use Nursemaids is pretty lol.


5)Its one thing to get both and if you can get away with using nursemaids without any trouble in acc, then yeah, the extra seconds on the +2 are better but dont pretend you are speaking about merit pt/endgame mobs. I call bullshit on you if you are.

1) I agree with you there and I said it in my earlier post, when you arent getting resisted then HARP>HORN.

2)I"ve never had problem sleeping with a harp at bird camp/ in limbus/ or in dynamis.( Ive never done einherjar as brd so for what i used bard for i had no problems with harp sleeping.

3)Your point is made not valid by Number 1.

4) shit i dont even have string or wind merits and for what I used bard for it worked out just fine.

5)Please see number 4. and once again you state that if you aren't getting resisted then harp is better then horn, which again please see number 3.

And really...3 extra seconds of duration? that's hardly worth the praise everyone seems to be giving this harp...

Thanks for the sig but 3 seconds Can mean the difference between a shadow, a Cure, or your lullaby's recast timers to be up. And when you aren't getting much resist in the first place, I'll take the 3 seconds.

TL ; DR

All this debate over 1 song.

That hardly has a place in this game anymore anyways. . .

[Rainewaters]

Thanks for the sig but 3 seconds Can mean the difference between a shadow, a Cure, or your lullaby's recast timers to be up. And when you aren't getting much resist in the first place, I'll take the 3 seconds.

TL ; DR

All this debate over 1 song.

That hardly has a place in this game anymore anyways. . .

As long as people want to merit, lullaby will always have a role in this game.
And I'de rather take the practicality of horn than deal w/ a harp..

[jimbobsonofgod]

As long as people want to merit, lullaby will always have a role in this game

Talking more about horde then foe, and really if you're having problems sleeping merit mobs, Insert QQ here.


^.^

[Rainewaters]

Talking more about horde then foe, and really if you're having problems sleeping merit mobs, Insert QQ here.


^.^

unless you just hit 75 brd and don't have the ideal gear for it, you should NEVER have issues landing lullaby.