Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Shin Volcano]

Hmm I did 3 (successful) runs of 5man nyzul recently with me as WHM and the other 4 as DD (most /war or /sam) and I never came close to running out of mp. I imagine a rdm would have even less of a problem in the same situation (at least, the RDMs I know).

Playing a job that is naturally mp-efficient does not necessarily mean said player will know how to manage their mp. If all you've run across are terrible rdms who don't know how to use what they have then I guess that's where you could get the running dry conclusion.

You probably didn't get shitty floors like All chariots 2 x in a row etc, it all depends on how luck you get with floors, having a brd to just throw ballad is escentiay the same thing, i normaly didnt have mp issues unless i got a bunch of retarded meele, rdm would have MORE of a problem in the same situation, as they cant heal things like petrification off khim boss for example. or you're fighting dahaks. or you meet a flayer that with no brd cant dispel the spikes and have to keep spaming paralyna+erase+ blinda, situations like that is where rdm will fall fast, but nyzul is random, so it still depends on how lucky you get with floors.

hell i even got thru a floor where whm was restricted but it was a family floor with imps, lucky etc.

[Pesan]

Well it also depends on the range of effect for the avatar as well.


"By summoning an avatar while this ability is active, a corresponding beneficial effect from above table will be granted to all party members within range of the avatar."

If it's too small a range it'd be an interesting combo of sending in Diabolos in to attack for a bit to give mp refresh to melee and BP, then quickly sending it back to put the refresh effect back on mages.

Tho by looking at it, SMN would be the new sheep herder. Gotta be by the avatar if u want the effect.

[Midnightjade]

How does it gimp TP possibilities when it was already a roll of the dice to begin with? You'd think BSTs would be happy being able to...you know, choose the TP move.

It means you'll be feeding the mob TP for 6 minutes in order to pull off a move that resembles a DD's weaponskill, if that.

If you had a SAM in the party that had acc of 60% and pulled out a Gekko every 6 minutes, you'd kick them (I know I would). This update honestly looks to have made BST even more useless than it was before.

[dejet]

You probably didn't get shitty floors like All chariots 2 x in a row etc, it all depends on how luck you get with floors, having a brd to just throw ballad is escentiay the same thing, i normaly didnt ha ve mp issues unless i got a bunch of retarded meele, rdm would have MORE ofa problem in the same situation, as they cant heal things like petrification off khim boss for example. or you're fighting dahaks. or you meet a flayer that with no brd cant dispel the spikes and have to keeps paming paralyze+ erase+ blinda, situations like that is where rdm will fall fast, but nyzul is random, so it still depends on how lucky you get with floors.

I still do not understand why you keep going to end game events? we are talking about pre 75... exp pts you know where smn is shunned? end game has room for smn always had.


edit: It is fact that whm is best for 99% of end game. I will say it again, RDM IN EXP PTS IS BETTER WITH THEIR MP. YOU CAN NOT GET AROUND CONVERT OR REFRESH 1 ON 1 UNLESS YOU ARE FIGHTING SPIDERS RDM WILL WIN.

[Isiolia]

How does it gimp TP possibilities when it was already a roll of the dice to begin with? You'd think BSTs would be happy being able to...you know, choose the TP move.

Clearly they're going to observe it and determine a more appropriate time down the line, or like they did when SCH was seen as a gimped RDM, adjust it very quickly.

Because it takes away your chance of randoming up something good on a short(er) timer. Assuming that you don't just have to have the pet out for X amount of time to "unlock" the good TP moves and have them available from then on.

The bigger thing to me is that, as had been discussed in the update I thread, along with other places, is that jug pet TP moves are -far- from BST's biggest concern.

SE hasn't adjusted BST quickly, well, ever, and have been content to let it be all but completely undesired by the general populace for years. It's a half-ass update that'll be followed by nothing but more mediocrity on their part.

That's being a good support job, not MP effiencet them selfs...unless you are just standing there refreshing only i guess so.

Exactly. RDM is easily one of the least MP-efficient mages. It just has a solid mix of spells and the ability to recover MP while standing better than anyone else (other things like Elemental Siphon or Sublimation are like Convert -or- Refresh, not both).

If a WHM/SCH is a Prius, a RDM is a Hummer with a spare gas tank.

[Shin Volcano]

I still do not understand why you keep going to end game events? we are talking about pre 75... exp pts you know where smn is shunned? end game has room for smn always had.


edit: It is fact that whm is best for 99% of end game. I will say it again, RDM IN EXP PTS IS BETTER WITH THEIR MP. YOU CAN NOT GET AROUND CONVERT OR REFRESH 1 ON 1 UNLESS YOU ARE FIGHTING SPIDERS RDM WILL WIN.

Apprently you don't understand the word "example"

Exp pts are hard?.

[Spira]

I'd like to see how powerful the refresh on Diabolos Favor is.. and the perp cost..
cos Diabolos is 13mp/tic. good perp gear will take him down by 8+1, giving 4mp/tic.

Using modest figures,
If perp cost reduction is 2mp/tic and Refresh steadily goes above 2mp/tic, that means a SMN can keep him out forever and get MP back.
Used in the context of a manaburn pt, the SMN can be an effective refresher. /BRD for an additional mp/tic and spam Dream Shroud for MAB.. and Elemental Siphon for MP in between.

Assume 0 perp cost total. Dream Shroud is 121mp. Elemental Siphon in proper gear is 300~mp. Dream Shroud lasts 3min , ES is on a 5minute timer. You'd definitely be self-sufficient...

but of course, you're a 1 trick pony, not that theres any fun being a refresher in an astral burn pt. At least the BLMs don't have to steal BRDs and RDMs from real merit pts XD

[dejet]

Exactly. RDM is easily one of the least MP-efficient mages. It just has a solid mix of spells and the ability to recover MP while standing better than anyone else (other things like Elemental Siphon or Sublimation are like Convert -or- Refresh, not both).

If a WHM/SCH is a Prius, a RDM is a Hummer with a spare gas tank.

no one has said how whm/sch can outdo a rdm once at all. RDM = close to same mp with refresh and convert, in a tp burn who else are you going to refresh? why are you debuffing outside dia?

whm has haste, rdm has haste
because of this that key factor is taken away.

tp burn style pre merit is almost always
ddx4
healer
bard

key thing no one else to refresh. top on Composure at 50 for 40 MP you get 450 mp. thats nuts. now you have convert to throw in there. one on one again in tp burn (thats 99% of the pts anyways post 35 now)

ya if you had a normal pt set up you would want a whm or a sch to help heal and have debuffs and what not. However for 99% of pts I have been in for the last 2 years its always rdm > whm because of this.

edit: also dont forget whm does not even get Sublimation till 70.

[Plow]

SMN update is so-so.

Biggest Cons:

Still leaves us short of, well, just about everything when it comes to merits and any kind of zerg, and dynamis/nyzul/etc.


Biggest Pros:

Well, obviously the effects. If it can get as good as cor rolls, free diabolos +4mp/tic refresh for my pt? Fuck yeah.

It's not that retarded shit they're doing to bst.

[dejet]

SMN update is so-so.

Biggest Cons:

Still leaves us short of, well, just about everything when it comes to merits and any kind of zerg, and dynamis/nyzul/etc.


Biggest Pros:

Well, obviously the effects. If it can get as good as cor rolls, free diabolos +4mp/tic refresh for my pt? Fuck yeah.

It's not that retarded shit they're doing to bst.

I did point out how a smn could be used in a zerg fyi so long as its not with K club drks you should be fine using a fully buffed pet for DA+15%+ or CH rate(if its K clubs) bard can just drop after buffs and throw in the smn.

[Shin Volcano]

Why the hell has this turned into a Rdm/whm debate now? neither were even mentioned in the update...

back on topic..

I'd like to see how powerful the refresh on Diabolos Favor is.. and the perp cost..
cos Diabolos is 13mp/tic. good perp gear will take him down by 8+1, giving 4mp/tic.

Using modest figures,
If perp cost reduction is 2mp/tic and Refresh steadily goes above 2mp/tic, that means a SMN can keep him out forever and get MP back.
Used in the context of a manaburn pt, the SMN can be an effective refresher. /BRD for an additional mp/tic and spam Dream Shroud for MAB.. and Elemental Siphon for MP in between.

Assume 0 perp cost total. Dream Shroud is 121mp. Elemental Siphon in proper gear is 300~mp. Dream Shroud lasts 3min , ES is on a 5minute timer. You'd definitely be self-sufficient...

but of course, you're a 1 trick pony, not that theres any fun being a refresher in an astral burn pt. At least the BLMs don't have to steal BRDs and RDMs from real merit pts XD

it wouldmake sense, diabolos has no "hard" hitting moves for him to be abused other then a supporter if you did factor in the day/weather bonuses from AF2 he can probabl y stay out a while, as surprisnlgy he's actually a decent tank with nectoshield on weaker mobs.

[Isiolia]

no one has said how whm/sch can outdo a rdm once at all. RDM = close to same mp with refresh and convert, in a tp burn who else are you going to refresh? why are you debuffing outside dia?

whm has haste, rdm has haste
because of this that key factor is taken away.

tp burn style pre merit is almost always
ddx4
healer
bard

key thing no one else to refresh. top on Composure at 50 for 40 MP you get 450 mp. thats nuts. now you have convert to throw in there. one on one again in tp burn (thats 99% of the pts anyways post 35 now)

ya if you had a normal pt set up you would want a whm or a sch to help heal and have debuffs and what not. However for 99% of pts I have been in for the last 2 years its always rdm > whm because of this.

edit: also dont forget whm does not even get Sublimation till 70.

Yeah, but all that doesn't make RDM efficient with their MP. It just means they have a lot of it to spend. I'm not saying RDM isn't a good choice for merit or whatnot, 'cause it is.

[drwaffles]

SMN update looks really great - if implemented properly it could really change the job. It looks like they essentially gave them access to various Phantom Rolls, the potencies of which are based upon the length of time your avatar is out rather than luck. Perpetuation will probably be halved, which makes keeping avatars out (and thus contributing to overall damage) far more realistic, especially Diabolos. Looks like SMN will be the job to have in the BLM party now - 4 mp/tick Refresh for everyone in range as well as Dream Shroud. Yum.

[Gergall]

Looks like SMN will be the job to have in the BLM party now - 4 mp/tick Refresh for everyone in range as well as Dream Shroud. Yum.

Lucky Roll on Evoker's is only 3. Job bonus makes it a 4. I guess we'll know for sure on update day but I'd bet on 3.

[Spira]

3 is a good bet.. double ballad is 3 at base too after all.
and it supposedly stacks with all other forms of refresh.. so it adds up

[Classikmage]

OMG, just woke up and woot at the SMN update. o.O;;

[Ophannus]

I bet the SMN ability is going to increase BP timers by 50%.

[drwaffles]

Lucky Roll on Evoker's is only 3. Job bonus makes it a 4. I guess we'll know for sure on update day but I'd bet on 3.

Oh right, I was thinking of an 11 roll.

[dejet]

Yeah, but all that doesn't make RDM efficient with their MP. It just means they have a lot of it to spend. I'm not saying RDM isn't a good choice for merit or whatnot, 'cause it is.

It does make it efficient as a job in merit pts and exp. it depends what you consider efficient, maybe because of the 10% whm gets back fromm light arts? then again like I said rdm can do the same thing, they have Regen I, the most MP efficient spell.

In my book having MP at the end of the fight is MP efficient I guess you think of it as MP/spell? to me that is not what it is. If that is what you mean then I can see your side a bit more, I just do not view it that way.

also on topic: we someone got into rdm vs whm because we start to say smn might have room in pts more. it went from pld+smn = pld+rdm because of the regen that the blue rat might give. to now rdm vs whm ~_~

[Shagoa]

I was really hoping for a "fix" to BST. I have both SMN and BST leveled, and looks like yet again I'll never be taking BST to endgame events. yay at solo'ing/duo'ing La Vaule NM's still.

I was hoping for something more like Hasso/Seigan where one ability could be up to increase the BST ACC/ATT/haste vs. mobs but maybe decrease pets, and then the other up would boost the pet instead. One for melee BST, the other for throwing pets at stuff.