Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[McGoonagle]

Dude. There's no new avatar. None. Get the fuck over it already.

As for the new ability, may as well just get a damn corsair.

Yeah, but there are a lot more SMNs looking for pts than corsairs to fill the available slots.

[Spira]

since there are at least 2 more avatars coming.. i wonder what their favors will be....

Regain? 1 -> 2 -> 3 TP/tic isn't too far fetched actually..
Max HP boost? lol

and why don't elemental spirits have favors too? They should all give elemental enspell-gas or something..

[Vendeen]

It won't change SMN invite rate in the slightest. As someone said above the ideal setup for a pre-meritpo party about 50+ is: 4 DD 1 BRD/COR 1 RDM

SMN won't replace a rdm as they have both haste and refresh, enfeebles and convert. SMNs can haste, kinda. Refresh, kinda. Get MP back via elemental siphon...so in essence they can't be as good as RDMs, so you're still gonna need a RDM for an exp party.

Can they replace BRDs/CORs? Yes...once again, kinda. BRDs and CORs have a wider range of buffs they can give melee and mages while SMN only has one. They can also sleep, and elegy is amazing, neither of which SMN can do well.

This only leaves DD. To be a sufficient DD in a exp party they would essentially need to be able to get MP back with their avatars out. Even if they could do that, they might do a little more dmg they say a COR, but would only be able to give 1 buff, and they can't really DD + refresh unless the RDM wants to be sitting in with the melee.

[Gergall]

Can they replace BRDs/CORs? Yes...once again, kinda. BRDs and CORs have a wider range of buffs they can give melee and mages while SMN only has one. They can also sleep, and elegy is amazing, neither of which SMN can do well.

Lets wait and see if SMN can pull off a fulltime Ward buff + Favor buff. Elegy and Lullaby aren't always a huge deal for XP.

[Gergall]

since there are at least 2 more avatars coming.. i wonder what their favors will be....

In the June/July 2009 interview they were suddenly talking about the new "avatar" not "avatars". And when I say talking about, all they said was that it is still coming and be patient.

[Rafbacca]

The buffs will probably last as long as the current ice spikes/enthunder SMN get now. Which is hardly any time at all.

[Vendeen]

Lets wait and see if SMN can pull off a fulltime Ward buff + Favor buff. Elegy and Lullaby aren't always a huge deal for XP.

SMNs would still need to be able to get MP back with avatars out to be able to use their ward buffs and keep their Favor buffs on for the majority of the time. Also, elegy is amazing, I don't know what you're talking about. If you're on BRD, or have a BRD in an exp party and they aren't using elegy...seek help.

[requim]

If summoner could full time an avatar like Ifrit and deal decent damage (at least on par with a corsair) while giving at least 10% DA (3DDs*~10%+avatar is roughly a full DD alone) and at the same time contribute something (healing costs mp, but could also melee/dnc or pull) from the master it would be useful enough for xp. So assuming it could match two of the three roles (healer, DD, support) at half their abilities, summoner could become tolerable/substitutable.

Of course you'ld eventually run out of mp and favor is somehow going to weaken your avatar that the likelihood of matching any role, even at half the ability, is debatable.

While elegy and lullaby are both incredibly powerful, neither increase your kill speed and can be superfluous for being high for a camp or being PL'd. Note, constant pulling would still be required, just not the need to sleep them.

[Ksandra]

It won't change SMN invite rate in the slightest. As someone said above the ideal setup for a pre-meritpo party about 50+ is: 4 DD 1 BRD/COR 1 RDM

SMN won't replace a rdm as they have both haste and refresh, enfeebles and convert. SMNs can haste, kinda. Refresh, kinda. Get MP back via elemental siphon...so in essence they can't be as good as RDMs, so you're still gonna need a RDM for an exp party.

Can they replace BRDs/CORs? Yes...once again, kinda. BRDs and CORs have a wider range of buffs they can give melee and mages while SMN only has one. They can also sleep, and elegy is amazing, neither of which SMN can do well.

This only leaves DD. To be a sufficient DD in a exp party they would essentially need to be able to get MP back with their avatars out. Even if they could do that, they might do a little more dmg they say a COR, but would only be able to give 1 buff, and they can't really DD + refresh unless the RDM wants to be sitting in with the melee.

I used to meripo as smn in a 4 dd brd smn pt. It was complete cake with siphon (brd was sub nin too), I even kept garuda haste up.

The problem isn't summoner, the problem is people thinking there's a problem.

[TummieGaruda]

I still expect to see an avatar at the end of the update notes cycle however. A thing that big will have it own update note I'm sure.

why would you flat out expect it? Isnt that just setting yourself up if you dont get it?

SE came way out of left field two hours before maintenance with an update teaser for Diabolos, so I expect SE to pull the same kind of thing since they mentioned in an interview back in July that the avatars should be ready this update.

[The Stig]

since there are at least 2 more avatars coming.. i wonder what their favors will be....

Regain? 1 -> 2 -> 3 TP/tic isn't too far fetched actually..
Max HP boost? lol

and why don't elemental spirits have favors too? They should all give elemental enspell-gas or something..

Emnity +
Emnity -

[Spira]

In the June/July 2009 interview they were suddenly talking about the new "avatar" not "avatars". And when I say talking about, all they said was that it is still coming and be patient.

they speak in japanese.. and in Japanese, a noun doesnt have a default singular or plural form, so unless they started stating numbers, one shouldn't read into that interview that way.

[Thiefami]

I used to meripo as smn in a 4 dd brd smn pt. It was complete cake with siphon (brd was sub nin too), I even kept garuda haste up.

The problem isn't summoner, the problem is people thinking there's a problem.

say that again lol, I remember main healing at everything as summoner without an issue. This was years ago when the only endgame was sky and groundkings, but still..

[Acturus]

Late to the game, sorry:

1. History has taught us that there won't be a second buff for SMN packaged in this update that will be the opposite of Avatar's Favor. Hasso/Seigan and Afflatus Misery/Solace were annouced hand-in-hand. Avatar's Favor is closer to Footwork or Composure than anything else. It's buff with a corresponding penalty that allows for something different to happen at the expense of what is typically expected.

2. New Avatars are not Summoner-specific. They are BCNM fights where one of the rewards is the ability to call a new avatar. SE rarely discusses new weapons or accessories in specifics before patch days. SE won't tell the FFXI fanbase about a new avatar, they will tell the FFXI fan base about a new battle where the avatar will be a reward.

3. It's nice to see the old arguments don't change: "Summoner, as a hybrid job, sucks at everything because it doesn't excel at anything." While there is a measure of truth in that exceedingly negative statement, the only value in that statement seems to extend to experience points parties.

Experience points parties are 90% of a player's time leveling up, maybe 50% of a player's time at 75, but represent a tiny fraction of the game's content. Summoner has never been a first-pick party job. This won't change that. It's not supposed to. It does what every good buff to a hybrid job should: It increases the overall utility of that job in all areas.

Summoners can now help provide buffs to other jobs in a consistant manner, while at the same time retaining the ability to deal some form of damage.

My only complaint about this is that the buffs do not extend to pets. Hopefully, the Avatar's favor will extend to the Avatar itself, but you can never really count on that with SE.




As for BST, go BST, hope it's worthwhile.

[Vendeen]

I said pre-meritpos. Won't disagree that SMNs can be in meritpos and do well.

The problem isn't summoner, the problem is people thinking there's a problem.

Same can be said for a job like THF in a merit, it's good, it fits, but it's just not ideal and when people make merits they always go for the ideal setup. (<- Talking about birds)

[Bikpik]

Charges
Regardless of the beastmaster's level, one charge will accumulate for every two minutes after a pet has been called, up to a maximum of three. The amount of charges required will vary depending on ability.

you don't have to melee to build charges, but you'd still have to wait anyway.
and it seems to imply that you start off with 0 charges.

Sorry, my reading sucks this early. Kind of figured it would start at 0, but only being able to stack 3 sucks. At least 5 would've been helpful

[Kenji]

I have to wonder how many people actually play SMN. Should make it a requirement that if you're going to post negatively about it, state what level your SMN is first...

Anyway, I've leveled WHM, RDM, SCH and SMN to 75. Didn't have a problem healing parties at all. SMN has Hastega, which is *less* mp overall than RDM trying to haste multiple people. Diabolos has Phalanxga, nice for the tank to take less damage (and for anyone stupid enough to pull hate and not manage shadows).

And now, if you have, say, a DRK and BLU in your party, Diabolo's favor will immediately start giving them all mp. In the long run, it'll be more efficient giving the whole group an average of 2mp a tick, rather than recasting refresh over and over for 40mp. Debuffs aren't usually much of an issue, since things should be dying relatively fast. Nether Blast can add decent damage to the party.

As far as downsides to this new ability, based on how I read it... It's dispellable at least. If it borrows avatar power, then it could borrow the specific thing that it buffs, ie, lowers Shiva's magic attack to give magic attack to the group. Even if it is a general -Attack to each avatar, will it even be noticable? BP damage is all over the place anyway, then we might not even notice. I have 1 avatar attack merit, and compared with people who have all 5, my BP damage is largely the same.

Although this is just speculation. It's logical to withhold the QQ'ing until we see things in practice. But if you feel the need to whine, please do so. I hear it can be therapeutic.

[Rionel]

I used to meripo as smn in a 4 dd brd smn pt. It was complete cake with siphon (brd was sub nin too), I even kept garuda haste up.

The problem isn't summoner, the problem is people thinking there's a problem.

What I was thinking. I think with SMN you just gotta seriously -try- while being competent. It has the right tools to be effective, you just have to make it work.

I've done meripo as SMN many times. All you gotta do is have the right jobs to work with. Although with Ksandra's setup, I'd hope at least one of those DDs was a DRG/BLU or something to help with big heals incase something bad happens ;x (Has to have good Healing Breath gear as well) but that's me being extra cautious. Just a personal preference though!

These favours do look pretty interesting. I'd definitely want to test them as soon as possible.

I was almost hoping that Garuda would be +Haste... but that might be a little too disgusting. I'm surprised there's no Accuracy Favour there too. Maybe the new avatars will have some interesting ones?

I don't think the favors will affect the Avatars themselves though, which would be too bad. Garuda's Evasion Favor would be nice to add onto herself for soloing and stuf etc etc.

A quote from the french site:

Diminue la puissance de l'avatar en échange d'un effet protecteur donné par celui-ci. Le coût magique de l'avatar est réduit sous cet effet.

Basically means, "Diminishes the power of the Avatar in exchange for a protective effect. The magical cost of the Avatar is reduced under this effect." Will definitely need to test the power reduction as well to find out what it is and how potent it is on the Avatar itself.

The update can't come soon enough~

[Gergall]

It's buff with a corresponding penalty that allows for something different to happen at the expense of what is typically expected.

What is the penalty?

[Vendeen]

I'd guess it would increase blood pact timer and possibly atk/acc of the avatar. Either way, from the information given Diabolos will be the most used avatar with this Favor thing and increasing blood pact timer and atk/acc won't effect it much, if at all. Inb4 it nerfs the blood pacts though.