Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[requim]

man/temp BST/NIN (typical sj) is a man/joy WAR/NIN without JTs or JAs.

Easy until you realize how substantial 10-15% more DA and +25%atk|25acc*(0.6~.72) is when compared to loljug pets. Although the BST update wording is still ambiguous enough that the jug pets might be getting boosted beyond Sic-Ready.

Also hurray for dinging into my warrior's gear and temperance axe having zero appeal to anyone ever for lotting purposes.

[Gunitsoldier]

Okay on that but one thing: can the BST's pet make up the difference in damage? People too often focus solely on PUP and DRG damage without seeing the large boost from pets. Perhaps this update can help strengthen a BST's overall damage in a party with improved (re: consistent) and damaging TP moves.

BST pets (with the JT meritted fully) hardly do any damage on merit mobs. Esp in MMJSP you can expect a shitload of misses of your pet. If your Sics land on the mob you can be happy already. On certain events where you encounter T'ish mobs BSTs like this will pleasantly surprise you though. It's just that the level of merit mobs is too high for pets and since pets have no food, gear or merits they will perform weak overall.

[Toth]

BST pets (with the JT meritted fully) hardly do any damage on merit mobs. Esp in MMJSP you can expect a shitload of misses of your pet. If your Sics land on the mob you can be happy already. On certain events where you encounter T'ish mobs BSTs like this will pleasantly surprise you though. It's just that the level of merit mobs is too high for pets and since pets have no food, gear or merits they will perform weak overall.

What is the most accurate jug pet?

[Gunitsoldier]

I can't say for sure, I use funguars and crabs because funguar with JT 5/5 is pretty sweet and crabs never let me down. But to name a most accurate jug pet? I have no idea sorry.

[LinktheDeme]

Well since this whole JA thing I'm seeing isn't really merit based (unless your doing a manaburn?) since the buffs on avatars aren't really as effective since it seems the only way this update would be merit efficient if it reached the cap pretty fast. If Garuda had a better one because summoners will need to switch to that a lot in a merit situation not to mention elemental siphon.

However I am seeing a lot of potencial in stacking up the buffs (assuming they stack with the avatar out) and making 5/5 shiva merits with right gear to have summoners actually somewhat more viable on hnm.

Anyway, my main point is if shiva's buff can get as good as lucky corsair roll doesn't this mean the whole 9 sch trick just got a lot easier to do on AV since you can get the base helix up a lot more now?

[Almalexia]

Ifrit's Favor - Improved "Double Attack" rate

Ah, I see this is that mythic weapon patch I've been expecting.

[Soracloud]

Okay on that but one thing: can the BST's pet make up the difference in damage? People too often focus solely on PUP and DRG damage without seeing the large boost from pets. Perhaps this update can help strengthen a BST's overall damage in a party with improved (re: consistent) and damaging TP moves.

With this new update (from what most have gathered) those Damaging TP moves will take 6 minutes to "Charge" before they can be used. After each and every TP move. So our pet will be able to deliver mediocre DMG every 4 or so mobs...


Unless the wording is all messed up and once 3 Charges are reached they are not expended. Then you just have to wait for 2 minutes.

[vagus]

Rubbish....

Now I have to wait 6 Goddamn minutes to use a Pets "Big" TP Move...

6 Minutes for CC Stoneskin, 6 Minutes for FF Silence Gas (that will get fully resisted) 6 Minutes for AS 1,000 Needles @ 20K Gil a pop....

Unless Charges are acquired and never lost and Ready uses a 2 minute Timer like Sic then this "Update" for BST is a kick in the balls.

This is my exact thinking. However this patch for bst is in the step in the right direction. Hopefully more jug pets will be released and/or the current ones patched mainly cactus boy. Lol.

The smn one is interesting and i'm eager to try it out in a blm PT. So much trolling by ppl with low post counts in this thread. Lol.

[Isiolia]

Okay on that but one thing: can the BST's pet make up the difference in damage? People too often focus solely on PUP and DRG damage without seeing the large boost from pets. Perhaps this update can help strengthen a BST's overall damage in a party with improved (re: consistent) and damaging TP moves.

Not usually, no. Melee-wise, a BST is effectively a BRD with A- axe and decent gear selection (though, frankly, BRD has some pretty nice melee gear too). Base stats are very similar, and BST has -zero- inherent JAs or traits to boost their own damage.

I guess originally they had Killer traits that'd boost output on the right mobs, but since those got nerfed way back when, they're rather irrelevant.

The effort into BST just isn't commensurate with the results. Sure, a decked out BST getting full support does decently. Put that same effort into WAR, and it'll pull ahead by quite a bit. When pushing the job in merit though, you push the BST's damage more. I've outparsed plenty o' AH DDs on BST before. It still wouldn't hold a candle to my WAR though, especially not post 2h update.

One of the basic problems with pets, as you probably know from PUP n' all, is that your pet doesn't tend to benefit from party buffs and all (unless you've got a pet party and a COR actually using those rolls). Performance is relatively static. While you can do some to boost jugs, for the most part they just fall behind the better everyone else gets. PUP can adjust frame/gear and all, DRG gets more breaths the more they WS and such, BST really doesn't see their pets improve alongside them.

Now, things are a bit different when you're talking about charmed pets, since a charmed EM mob can do a fairly large chunk of damage. BST's relative lack of offensive prowess makes sense with that, just like it makes sense that PUP isn't a MNK plus an Automaton. Gotta have some measure of balance.
However, that's not the usual case. Jug pets are, since they're available anywhere. As the "staple" solution, they just don't do enough. A few hundred extra damage (maybe) every few mobs isn't going to do much.

[Shassira]

This is such a poor update to bst. And a promise of "we'll look further into it" just sounds to me like "We'll be analyzing if we are adding a pet job in XIV".

I've pretty much left XI already since I got tired of waiting on that right update - now playing Aionm with its 1000 bots -, albeit I still do my weekly 3 salvage runs and will probably come back once more to finish WotG when it actualy ends (say, in a year?). But despite that I was at least hoping to see some good update for the job that i've always wanted to play most, which is BST.

Sadly, it brings nothing to the table. The TP move from most jug pets are useless or weak and to the exception of Amigo and other "debuffs", they could just not exist and it would be the same. Being able to choose from the list does make it better because there's a range of uselessnes there, but it's still not addressing anything for BSTs.
Furthermore, the addition of charges to limit which moves you can choose makes it even worse.

I understand there was a "need" to block 1000 Needles (tbh, I still don't think it's that much of a problem, but that's another matter...), but this could've been done differently.


What a BST needs, apart from making Charm actualy mean something in any random event, is jug pets to be better in general. They need more acc, more atk... simply a way to enhance them. The master is fine, we can do decent damage with the correct buffs and the pet is needed to close the gap with other DDs.

The problem is, pets simply don't have the required accuracy and attack and once you enter the VT+ realm, your jugs perform poorly no matter what... and there is nothing you can do about it.

There is one simple solution for this (which granted, could still come in the update... yeah right), which is *real pet food* that enhances pet stats. Give us pet sushi, pet curry, etc. Another would be to make pets instantly share the master's buffs.

One cannot think that the recent gear with pet+ enhancements is a fix to the acc/atk problem because it forces you to gimp down the master. In other words, it forces you to reduce the effectiveness of 80% of your dmg in favor of 20% of your damage.

Finaly, there is an added drawback to using a BST DD, which is TP fed. I understand this is the age of zerg, but it's also a time where low maning things is possible and you don't need to have full mage parties to low man. Parties of 3-5 people can do many *worthwhile* things. In such parties, TP control becomes important. A BST handing Temperance Axe and a pet feeds more TP than... anything I can think of. Even if you remove temperance, you are still giving too much TP, which isn't resulting in effective damage compared to other jobs that could do much more for less.

--------------
Side note: I understand I only talked about damage, but as things stand, even considering BST to be tweaked for any other aspect (like being a tank... which i'd love) is unrealistic. "Sic II" is all SE could deliver, aparently.

[Soa]

Don't know much about SMN but it seems like a nice update.

The BST one would be perfect if the charge timer was 1 minute, as 2 minutes is far too long to make it very useful. I get to do a 300 damage Silence Gas or a 150 damage Big Scissors every 6 minutes, whoop dee freaking do.

Now if certain moves required you to have 3 charges to use but only consumed 1 charge when used, that would make the 2 minute timer justifiable.

[Fosgate]

Did the majority of people see that was no new avatar and immediately skip ahead to the bst update?? I think this is going to be pretty damn useful:


By summoning an avatar while this ability is active, a corresponding beneficial effect from above table will be granted to all party members within range of the avatar. The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.

Regen (Dancers roll, 3 (Lucky) 11HP/Tick 14HP/Tick)

Double attack (Fighters roll 5 (Lucky) 12% 18%)

Magic attack (Wizards roll 5 (Lucky) +10 +13)

Evasion (Ninja roll, No clue)

Defense ( None, possibly similar to Minne)

Crit rate (Rogue's roll 5 (Lucky) 12% 18%)

Magic acc (Warlock's roll, Not sure)

Magic evasion ( New concept? like Magic crit? Random change for MDB?)

Refresh (Evokers roll 5 (Lucky) +3 +4)


I would assume that the buff would be the same as a cor's roll without the added effect from the job being present. And it does say the abilities stack. Only question is how long it takes for the max effect to be reached.

Relic Brd + Smn with diablos out for a long period would ALMOST replace the need for a rdm. I can only imagine the other possibilities. MAB+10 from wizards roll, and SMN Magic attack buff +10 on a blm party?... Sexy

[GeneJackit]

Anyone else think that an astral burn nerf is coming? The SMN update indicates (imo) that SMN can now be in traditional parties, so maybe this is SE's way of punching SMNs while wearing a velvet glove

[willriker]

The thing to remember is that, COR can give two buffs. Any combination of below. This and with the proper job in the party, each buff is stronger. Not all COR buffs are here, i lifted this list off a poster before me.

Fighter's Roll (Double Attack) Lucky Number Result: 12%
Dancer's Roll (Regen) Lucky Number Result: 11 HP / Tick
Evoker's Roll (Refresh) Lucky Number Result: 3 MP / Tick
Ninja Roll (Evasion) Lucky Number Result: Unkown
Wizard's Roll (Magic Attack) Lucky Number Result: 10 Magic Attack Bonus
Warlock's Roll (Magic Accuracy) Lucky Number Result: Unkown
Rogue's Roll (Critical) Lucky Number Result: 12%


Smn will be able to grant a favor to all in party. At any rate, this is just one buff. We still have the standard pacts that we can recieve from the avatars as secondary buffs. While SMN is unable to pick and choose which buffs they can place on a party member, while keeping their favors at maximum eficiency, there are some interesting combinations here.

Carbuncle's Favor - Regen
(also has Ruby)
Ifrit's Favor - Improved "Double Attack" rate
(warcry?)
Shiva's Favor - Enhanced magic attack
(also has ice spikes?)
Garuda's Favor - Enhanced evasion
(also has an AoE haste)
Titan's Favor - Enhanced defense
(also has aoe stoneskin)
Ramuh's Favor - Improved critical hit rate
(also has enthunder)
Leviathan's Favor - Enhanced magic accuracy
(also has an ensuna/curaga)
Fenrir's Favor - Enhanced magic evasion
(also has a +all stats move)
Diablos's Favor - Refresh
(also has phalanx)


Well i am not a summoner main, and have work filters that prevent me from checking the wiki's. Can others help me to complete the lists of Avatar based buffs that SMN's have had for a while.

At anyrate there is nothing said, so far, that would lead me to believe that SMN buffs would not stack with COR buffs. So, with SMN and CoR, depending on what avatar and roll combination are being used... some very interesting things happen. Keep in mind that these numbers assume COR roll returns *2 without the corrosponding job in party. I also included some of the enhancing BP's that i remembered off the cuff. Since the SMN has the Avatar out, you might as well include the enhancing BP's available.

Dancer's Rolls + Carby's favor = @28 hp/tick. (+Carbys healing ruby)
Fighter's Roll + Ifrit's favor = +24% Double Attack (+Ifrits warcry)
Evoker's Roll + Diabolos's Favor = 7mp/tick (+i dont know what else here)
Ninja's Roll + Garuda's Favor = a chunk of evasion (+weak haste/Arial armor)
Wizards Roll + Shiva's Favor = @20 magic attack (+i dont know what fits here from shiva)
Warlock's Roll + Leviathan's Favor = double the magic accuracy (Same as above)
Rouge's Roll + Ramuh's Favor = +24% crit hit (+4% from merits and base 5% = 33% crit not including any DEX/AGI mod)


Then you have various other combinations that produce interesting results. I only compared like vs like combinations. Obviously i did not list them all.


Now, on top of all this, think of mixing a BRD into the mix. So you have BRD/COR/SMN/ 3DD. You can really make some interesting buff combinations happen. I really would not write SMN out of the TP burn Scene just yet. Not without giving some of these combinations a bit more testing.

[laverna]

[QUOTE=Silenka;3174856]Do you really think that SE will be nice enough to give diabolos's favor 4 mp/tick right off the bat? One, you have to build up to that over a span of several minutes, and two, in parties lower than, say, 70, I doubt it will go past 3/tick which is already what a RDM will be doing, but better and more instantaneously.

Everyone has to stop passing Speculation off as fact. What we think may or may not happen has not happened yet.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Except that the only innate buff in that list that matters to a merit party is Hastega, which comes coupled with.. Evasion.

[GeneJackit]

Im gonna speculate here and say that since there isnt an ACC buff, SE is gonna introduce the new Avatar whos favor is gonna be an ACC buff.



*and hoping for another new avatar whos favor is haste :Q~~

[Thiefami]

Ninja's Roll + Garuda's Favor = a chunk of evasion (+weak haste/Arial armor)

wut?

[Corrderio]

Anyone else think that an astral burn nerf is coming? The SMN update indicates (imo) that SMN can now be in traditional parties, so maybe this is SE's way of punching SMNs while wearing a velvet glove

Highly doubt this will end astral burns.

[Coolmints]

wut?

It used to be 10% haste from hastega, but it is now 15% like regular haste spell.