Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Byrthnoth]

Hol-yyy shit. Best SE update in a long time. Summoner has been Salvaged as a job assuming the "Favors" are remotely potent in their stat boost/perp minus. BST has had their one gripe answered after all these years, which leaves me wondering what the heck Aymur does. Totally should have been this way from the start.

[ronin sparthos]

So reading the whole thing about Bst getting a charge-based system and what not leading to complaints about the timer being too long.... anyone notice the bold?

Adjustments and additions have been scheduled that will greatly enhance the effectiveness of pets called forth via the "Call Beast" ability.

I assume by greatly enhance, they mean that accuracy and attack will be buffed meaning better DPS on pets along with the ability to now pick TP moves. The problem with jugs were that they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and were uncontrollable... perhaps the acc/att buffs will be far more than many people are taking it for.

Besides, how many times does SE actually say "yeah, we'll be buffing this more in the future" for a job class?

[BRP]

SE should probably have went with "Favors" being songs or something. Now you can stack buffs even higher and they didn't let SMN get two types of haste. Oh well, ultimately it could only make SMN more demanded.

There is no implied penalty on this new ability.

The BST ability doesn't seem like a huge improvement. The charge cost is too great.

[Gergall]

There is no implied penalty on this new ability.

Apparently the other language versions of the update topic imply a penalty, but debate seems useless.

The BST ability doesn't seem like a huge improvement. The charge cost is too great.

If I want my jug pet to use a TP move every 2 minutes, I am now restricted to the 1-charge abilities. This is a borderline nerf.

[Coolmints]

And for those summoners with scholar subjobs with diabolos... Endless MP refreshment coupled with endless ability to keep Diabolos perpetuated.

SMN now replaces BRDs for BLM/SCH (manaburn) parties entirely.

"replace" is a strong word, an alternative or paring up with a brd/cor is more appropriate (less resting time?)

Considering the blms usually go scatter and nuke, they might not be able to have refresh effect full time anyway.

[ronin sparthos]

Apparently the other language versions of the update topic imply a penalty, but debate seems useless.



If I want my jug pet to use a TP move every 2 minutes, I am now restricted to the 1-charge abilities. This is a borderline nerf.

Im looking at it this way: The enhanced pets might be potent enough that SE wants to see how exactly the new potent pets go over with the community and they basically said flat out that it's a work in progress so its not a nerf.

Maybe people will be pleasantly surprised with the new melee power/acc of the jugpets, stimulating jug sales

[Mojo]

The SMN buff certainly goes back to the age old question, "is it worth having only Cure III," for merit parties at least. It's certainly an improvement either way though.

I agree that the BST update seems like bullshit. Being able to choose is nice, but having to wait an entire 6 minutes to use a good TP move cripples its uses entirely. 1 minute per charge seems more reasonable to me.

[Jeryhn]

"replace" is a strong word, an alternative or paring up with a brd/cor is more appropriate (less resting time?)

Considering the blms usually go scatter and nuke, they might not be able to have refresh effect full time anyway.

Depends what you're burning on. The only thing I can think of which requires BLMs to scatter and nuke would be flans which can cast Sleepga, but there's also stun, sleep, silence, or paralyze for that.

Of course, bringing a COR instead of a fifth BLM or a SCH for magic attack and evoker's roll would be beneficial for downtime purposes. However, the problem is, a COR would most likely want to be in a TP burn party over a manaburn party.

Manaburn parties just might become more popular again is what I'm seeing from the single update of adding Avatar's Favor. The "black sheep" jobs BLM and SCH or even nuke-aspiring RDMs now have a refresh job that would be interested in partying with them, since RDM/BRD/COR would rather have TP burned EXP.

[Silenka]

You guys are entirely too optimistic.

SMN is not a COR with an MP bar. SMN is now able to give one cor-like buff in a limited area of effect while take a damage hit on the avatar's output.

It's like if you took away one roll from COR, gave them a lower damage gun, worse armor and quickdraw gear, and made them stand next to the party to get the effect of their own roll.

I don't need to pass hypothesis off as fact.

[Gergall]

Im looking at it this way: The enhanced pets might be potent enough that SE wants to see how exactly the new potent pets go over with the community and they basically said flat out that it's a work in progress so its not a nerf.

Maybe people will be pleasantly surprised with the new melee power/acc of the jugpets, stimulating jug sales

I think you're reading too much into the cryptic update notes. I would love for you to be correct, but I am skeptical at best.

[Isiolia]

So reading the whole thing about Bst getting a charge-based system and what not leading to complaints about the timer being too long.... anyone notice the bold?

I assume by greatly enhance, they mean that accuracy and attack will be buffed meaning better DPS on pets along with the ability to now pick TP moves. The problem with jugs were that they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and were uncontrollable... perhaps the acc/att buffs will be far more than many people are taking it for.

Besides, how many times does SE actually say "yeah, we'll be buffing this more in the future" for a job class?

To me it reads as a statement that there are improvements to jug pets, then the bullet points below ("Ready" and the charge system for it) are the details. As in, that's it, no other adjustments, those are the improvements that the statement refers to.

If they want to boost jug performance across the board, then great, but I don't see that in the announcement.

[neubian]

So reading the whole thing about Bst getting a charge-based system and what not leading to complaints about the timer being too long.... anyone notice the bold?



I assume by greatly enhance, they mean that accuracy and attack will be buffed meaning better DPS on pets along with the ability to now pick TP moves. The problem with jugs were that they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and were uncontrollable... perhaps the acc/att buffs will be far more than many people are taking it for.

Besides, how many times does SE actually say "yeah, we'll be buffing this more in the future" for a job class?

Looking at the Japanese announcement, it does not mention anything about SE adjusting the jug pet's potency. It only mentions that in order to "increase the utility" of jug pets they are scheduled to add a new pet ability (i.e. Ready) and make adjustments based on this new ability (i.e. the charge system to chose the TP move you want it to use).

I think the English translation is a bit misleading.

[Byrthnoth]

Way extra refresh doesn't matter really, but it can lead to some funny situations.

SV G-horn (14), Refresh (3), Lucky Evoker's (5), AF2 hat/Morri body/Balrahn's/Sanction gives RDM 26MP/tick.
Another Lucky Evoker's (5) would give 31 MP/tick. Could sub summoner or paladin for 32MP/tick. Could put yourself to sleep with Aries Mantle and Hardwood Katana for 34MP/tick. Could use Amrita instead of Refresh for 36MP/tick. Idk if Hydra Doublet stacks with Refresh, but if it does then you could use that instead of Morri for 39MP/tick. I'm sure you can squeeze another MP/tick or two out somewhere.

Once or twice in Salvage I ended up with the first situation (along with Body/Mana Boosts) vs. a weakened LBC. I encouraged the monks to blood tank so I'd be able to burn through my MP. After a certain point I'd switch to AF1 hat because MP was such a non-issue and I wanted to use my items.

The BST "nerf" is questionable. I mean, Spore is a pretty badass move with moderate-high TP and it's one charge. This may just change what pets are good.

[drwaffles]

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

That's all I've seen from you this entire topic. How can it even be possible to be negative about this update?

[ronin sparthos]

I think you're reading too much into the cryptic update notes. I would love for you to be correct, but I am skeptical at best.

I was skeptical behind Composure but SEs wording on things always leave more questions than answers.

You guys are entirely too optimistic.

SMN is not a COR with an MP bar. SMN is now able to give one cor-like buff in a limited area of effect while take a damage hit on the avatar's output.

It's like if you took away one roll from COR, gave them a lower damage gun, worse armor and quickdraw gear, and made them stand next to the party to get the effect of their own roll.

I don't need to pass hypothesis off as fact.

SMN can now enter a manaburn PT, refresh and add Dream Shroud as they see fit. I dunno about you but COR are a rare lot compared to SMN so for a manaburn it'd be infinitely easier to pickup a SMN instead of waiting around for a COR.

No one knows the range on the favors so im assuming the same range as a Ward or more. We also do not know how much of a hit the avatar is going to take in terms of attack, it cold easily be something superficial like Composure was and even in the worse case scenario the patch simply gives us access to another refresher in a game that sorely could use more.

Optimistic? SE just basically introduced a new refreshing class to the game, is there a reason to not be atm? The only thing looking lame atm is Titan's favor, it might have been better if it was physical damage taken, DEF+ just all around sucks (if we compare it to Minnes) and there is no COR equivalent.

[Yugl]

That's all I've seen from you this entire topic. How can it even be possible to be negative about this update?

Because judging an update before its even out is what people specialize in here on BG.

[Spider-Dan]

You guys are entirely too optimistic.

SMN is not a COR with an MP bar. SMN is now able to give one cor-like buff in a limited area of effect while take a damage hit on the avatar's output.

It's like if you took away one roll from COR, gave them a lower damage gun, worse armor and quickdraw gear, and made them stand next to the party to get the effect of their own roll.

I don't need to pass hypothesis off as fact.

Rather than looking at SMN as COR-without-gun, you should be looking at SMN as healer-with-a-Roll.

It's not COR that SMN will be competing with (Favor stacks with Rolls). SMN will be competing with WHM, RDM, and SCH for non-endgame healing spots (SCH is looking pretty roughed up straight out of the gate).

This update divides healers (<-this part is important) into 4 categories:

1) Curebombing/magical defense specialist (WHM)
2) Mana juice box with limitless MP (RDM)
3) Offensive buff specialist (SMN)
4) Also-ran (SCH, DNC)

You should be talking less about how SMN is COR-on-a-budget and more about how main healers will need to justify Cure4 vs. Double Attack.

[Arcanesoul]

I read the update notes the same way as Isiolia. I don't see anything to suggest we're getting anything other than "Ready" for bst. Could only hope for some more useful jugs.

Personally I would rather of seen Beast affinity add jt's and buffs to their master and pet. I.e. say you have Bst/nin with Lars (which many consider is a drk), I would like to have seen 1 trait or buff transferred per level of BA from pet to master, and vice versa, so Bst/nin might get an Attack Bonus trait off Lars, and Lars would get subtle blow trait, etc, but maybe jt transfer would be better implemented as drgs are (i.e. some armour worn during call beast), and just stick to transfering buffs like Empathy, except 1 buff is added transferred each time charm is used while a jug pet is out (i,e. charm must be used on jug pet - no. of buffs limited by BA merit.). The thought process here is pretty half assed, but you get the drift.

1) some use out of charm while we have a jug pet (or at least allow the damn bind affect to work while we have a pet out)

2) some way to buff pet without adversely affecting the master.

3) Make the killer effects from bst useful again!

[Dimmauk]

I wonder if Amigos can 10,000 needles more easily.

[Gergall]

I'll be pretty cool with the BST update if 95% of all TP moves use 1 charge. Only the most broken of broken TP moves (1000 needles) warrant a 2- or 3- charge restriction.

Unfortunately, the funguar example shown by SE leads me to believe that they made some abilities use 2 or 3 charges just for variety - ie because they can.