Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[NervosaEternal]

fuck that shit, I'll take refresh from summoner in heart beat for exp over a whm, having exp'd pld up recently I can say curing for enmity makes tanking a ton easier, so rdm > smn if it good > whm > sch


you're a retard, it's much easier for pld to hold with refresh than cures and regen end of story, thus whm is less efficient since pld will have less hate from curing less and DD more likely to pull hate thus wasting mp. Sure it will work but loss of hate will probably cause some downtime.

Also for "downside" of it you guys over looking an obvious thing it could be, you have to pick an avatar favor for 5 minutes even if you have different one out thus you get one of the 9 only per 5 minutes plenty of a draw back. With sub-JA thing like quickdraw, dancer, or etc, when you use it you then pick one.

Agreed~

[evilpaul]

Avatar auras have been suggested for a long time now. SE finally decided to act now. A bit late but still does not hurt the summoner job, more tools to the bag.

I know, people were writing about them four years ago. Same with the Ranger changes.

I'm glad Square-Enix is finally reading their suggestion box from 2005. I bet we'll get Bahumat next update. Whenever in 2010 they get around to releasing the next update.

[NervosaEternal]

pffft they will never give us that, instead we will be slapped with false rumors of new Avatars and awesome badass upgrades to jobs that end up sucking extreme chode.

[Ermac]

I know, people were writing about them four years ago. Same with the Ranger changes.

I'm glad Square-Enix is finally reading their suggestion box from 2005. I bet we'll get Bahumat next update. Whenever in 2010 they get around to releasing the next update.

heheh gotcha!

[Severance]

MNK,BLM or we no care

[Spider-Dan]

Also for "downside" of it you guys over looking an obvious thing it could be, you have to pick an avatar favor for 5 minutes even if you have different one out thus you get one of the 9 only per 5 minutes plenty of a draw back.

What makes you think that each favor is a unique JA?

As I read it, the JA is "Avatar's Favor," and you get the favor that corresponds to the avatar in play. I didn't read that as a Phantom Roll-style set of individual favors, where you would use the specific JA "Ifrit's Favor" or "Garuda's Favor."

[GreenKnux]

What makes you think that each favor is a unique JA?

As I read it, the JA is "Avatar's Favor," and you get the favor that corresponds to the avatar in play. I didn't read that as a Phantom Roll-style set of individual favors, where you would use the specific JA "Ifrit's Favor" or "Garuda's Favor."

That is how I understand it. Avatar's Favor is a JA you activate, and what it gives you is based on what avatar is out. Hell, if you have no avatar out, it doesn't do anything.

As I've said, I hate SE, and I think they are fucking retarded. However, this update has made me actually want to play again.

[Khamsin]

Maybe the drawback will simply be something that affects only regular melee but not BPs. So BPs will still be full strength but you can't just abuse the free (or nearly free) avatars for full time meleeing. Not that any SMN would, anyway, but it's a thought.

It could also be something even more insignificant, such as the avatar takes a penalty on par with the buff it provides. e.g. Titan will have reduced defense, or Carby loses his auto-regen, etc. Then the drawback would be so insignificant, it'd make sense they didn't mention it (in the English text).

Guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Taruking]

I actually think Ready could have been the simplest solution to make BST more endgame friendly. Amigo is capable of dealing at least 9-10k hate free damage in 20mins not counting DOT on virtually any HNM if 1000 needles only consume 1 charge (who am I kidding). Being a MNK type mob and the only true lv100 uncapped jug, Amigo has the highest accuracy among all jugpets, can do decent DOT damage and has access to counter/kick attack and probably Subtle Blow job trait too. It will not overpower BST since Sunwater is not the easiest thing to make and cactuar root only drop off high level Cactuar NM. It could have been a lazy but quick fix to get BST into endgame LS and merit party.

The following scenario is an extreme example of how BST can be useful in endgame battle:

Cerberus spawns. Bring a Tank party consisting of Tankx2, WHM, RDM, BRD and BST/NIN. Get melee and BLU to sub THF. BST summons Amigo (or Funguar familiar) and parks jugpet next to tanks. BST stays behind Cerberus, melee and BLU SATA WS/Cannonball on BST who then use Snarl to transfer hate to jugpet. Every 5 mins (with max merit), BST activates Killer Instinct to add Beast killer effect to tanks, which lasts for 1 min, grants 10% intimidation rate and adds 15% attack and defense bonus to both tanks and BST. Spam 1000 needles for damage. Use Feral Howl to block GoH though it's accuracy is quite low on IT++ mobs.

[Spira]

BSTs have never wanted jug pets to soley have the abilty to select moves, all charmable mobs should have this too. If SE would do things properly, there would be no reason to bitch.

Tell me what benefit there is to only give jugs this ability? To give crafters a bit of hope?

I think its less to do with the benefit it brings and more to do with mob monopolization issues, scaling and balance as well as less coding to do.

Giving Ready to charmies would mean SE'd need to go thru the entire list of charmables and assign charge points to every single one of them, which is time consuming to code and balance and figure out.

The Charge system's timer doesnt work well with something you can charm/leave at will. Like, if it starts from 0, you'd have to wait, but what if its stored at 6min and the pet uncharms? are you going to start from 0 when you charm it again? If you start from 3, won't it be easy to exploit with a bunch of BST that can cycle the pet and the only thing holding them back is the pets TP? Issues like that make it harder to balance.

Mob monopolization.. already there are preferred pets and known BST zoos in game. Allowing BSTs to further exploit/utilize charmies makes the likelihood of them using said mobs is higher.

Right now I don't think Ready is that useful unless they really do something about the jugpets potency to make it worth using. It does say in there that they are strengthening jug pets, but its so vague because we don't know if they mean it as a direct strengthening or due to the fact that Ready will now exist.

In any case, I do have some hope. Amigo Sabotender COULD become a BSTs saving grace depending on how the charge list is determined. Considering how SMN avatars can easily throw out 1k DMG in a minute using MP, and most DD jobs can also pull off 1k dmg without much effort, for Amigo Sabotender (a 75 only jugpet with a current measly 3 TP movelist), they could easily expand his TP movelist by lowering 1000 needles to a 2 charge or 1 charge ability (i favor 1 charge, obviously).. and then add something like 2000 needles for 2 charges and 4000 needles for 3 charges.
Given the current state of job itemization in the game, something of that scale is hardly considered imbalanced and would make sense considering how Sun Water isn't exactly cheap or easy to obtain. Since they are all jug pets, we're effectively expending 'ammo' to put out the damage, not unlike RNG with cannon shells and so on.. so its reasonable.

as for the other jugs.. if their dmg or at least TP move efficiency/potency is upped by a significant amount in accordance with Ready, it might make spamming 1 charges worth the 2 minutes, or 6minutes worth the wait.. but.. update note vagueness ftw

[Arcanesoul]

I actually think Ready could have been the simplest solution to make BST more endgame friendly. Amigo is capable of dealing at least 9-10k hate free damage in 20mins not counting DOT on virtually any HNM if 1000 needles only consume 1 charge (who am I kidding). Being a MNK type mob and the only true lv100 uncapped jug, Amigo has the highest accuracy among all jugpets, can do decent DOT damage and has access to counter/kick attack and probably Subtle Blow job trait too. It will not overpower BST since Sunwater is not the easiest thing to make and cactuar root only drop off high level Cactuar NM. It could have been a lazy but quick fix to get BST into endgame LS and merit party.

The following scenario is an extreme example of how BST can be useful in endgame battle:

Cerberus spawns. Bring a Tank party consisting of Tankx2, WHM, RDM, BRD and BST/NIN. Get melee and BLU to sub THF. BST summons Amigo (or Funguar familiar) and parks jugpet next to tanks. BST stays behind Cerberus, melee and BLU SATA WS/Cannonball on BST who then use Snarl to transfer hate to jugpet. Every 5 mins (with max merit), BST activates Killer Instinct to add Beast killer effect to tanks, which lasts for 1 min, grants 10% intimidation rate and adds 15% attack and defense bonus to both tanks and BST. Spam 1000 needles for damage. Use Feral Howl to block GoH though it's accuracy is quite low on IT++ mobs.

I really have to ask, have you used Amigo before? What's this level 100 uncapped stuff ? I assume you're talking about alchemy level, but what does that have to do with it's prowess in combat? Since when was Amigo a monk? It's a sabotender, not a mandy. Also where did you get the info on it having the highest accuracy?

Secondly, why are you trying to get your pet killed with piling hate on it? Furthermore, Amigo does not have Carrie's HP. Try your idea out after the update and report back how far you get...

[EternalSnow]

So tell me what the fucking point is of making smn a retarded cor while simultaneously gimping the only thing it's even useful for anymore (one-shot spike damage with 70BP) ?

Suck harder, SE.

Didn't SE say in that info that it is to make smn more party friendly or whatever.

[Taruking]

I really have to ask, have you used Amigo before? What's this level 100 uncapped stuff ? I assume you're talking about alchemy level, but what does that have to do with it's prowess in combat? Since when was Amigo a monk? It's a sabotender, not a mandy. Also where did you get the info on it having the highest accuracy?

Secondly, why are you trying to get your pet killed with piling hate on it? Furthermore, Amigo does not have Carrie's HP. Try your idea out after the update and report back how far you get...

I have parsed Amigo against Lars, CC and Funguar, against IT mobs its accuracy is at least 5% higher. I actually meant lv75 uncapped not lv100, thinking too much about sunwater . Amigo uses kick attack, just like mandy uses counter, though I must say I am not 100% sure whether cactuar can also counter attack.

The whole idea behind the scenario is to turn BST into a semi co-tank job and a perfect SATA partner who also has some situationally good buffs. Melee damage is only a small bonus. As long as your tanks are competent they should be able to get hate back before jugpet is killed by HNM. Amigo only has 20min life span. If you worry about losing it just stick to funguar and resummon it every 5mins, just think of it as a disposal HP buffer to give your tank jobs some breathing space and melee and BLU will be able to use WS freely without pulling hate

[The Stig]

EDIT: nevermind my browser was stuck when I clicked "post", addressed above

[Soracloud]

I can't see your average BST coming to a Merit Party ever with Amigo. 12-20K a pop, when available on AH, lasts for 20 minutes. Even then, its a paltry 1K DMG every 6 minutes. Thats 3K DMG for the life of Amigo plus melleeing.

A pet LS, will have to farm, synth, camp AH for a month just to attempt a 1,000 Needles Spamfest.

Yes its a boost but completely impractical.

[Morn]

Use Feral Howl to block GoH though it's accuracy is quite low on IT++ mobs.

Just fucking L O L at bothering to mention Feral Howl at all, let alone against HNM. You are kidding, right?

[Arcanesoul]

I have parsed Amigo against Lars, CC and Funguar, against IT mobs its accuracy is at least 5% higher. I actually meant lv75 uncapped not lv100, thinking too much about sunwater . Amigo uses kick attack, just like mandy uses counter, though I must say I am not 100% sure whether cactuar can also counter attack.

The whole idea behind the scenario is to turn BST into a semi co-tank job and a perfect SATA partner who also has some situationally good buffs. Melee damage is only a small bonus. As long as your tanks are competent they should be able to get hate back before jugpet is killed by HNM. Amigo only has 20min life span. If you worry about losing it just stick to funguar and resummon it every 5mins, just think of it as a disposal HP buffer to give your tank jobs some breathing space and melee and BLU will be able to use WS freely without pulling hate

Could we see those parses please? That would be some damn nice info for the bst community if we could see that info on how jugs perform at a certain level against certain mobs.

Also Amigo's kick is just a regular attack. It just swings with a different part of it's body, and it's not an additional attack like it is with mnk (All sabotenders do this).

I understand that amigo is supposed to co-tank, but I'm sure the hate spikes would easily get it killed before timers are back up reducing it's effectiveness. To keep that pet out, all you have is call beast, and reward. Also reward, especially if you have a set for it, is going to cause a big enmity spike on your pet that you're trying to keep alive (same reason a bst doesn't use cure when he's getting beaten on to let pet take hate back). Then you also have the problem if you use the defensive gear with your pet, then the bst effectiveness suffers too. All these just make me think Amigo will die faster, and you'll end up with a less than effective bst.

Edit: Another thing is if you trying to use these charges, You need to make sure that Amigo stays out for at least 6 minutes.
Finally the last problem is the tank can't see your pets hp, and has a much tougher time co-tanking with it, since it's relying on the bst to tell him any relevant info.

[Soracloud]

I have yet to see Feral Howl work any NM, HNM or God other then Campaign Bosses. I have it Fully Merited and it works great on EXP Mobs but nothing in terms of end game NMs. What a surprise.

[Taruking]

If you guys read my post again I specifically mentioned Ready is only useful in merit party if 1000 needles only consumes one charge which means guaranteed 1000 damage every 2 mins.

The effect of Feral Howl has not been formally tested, many players have reported conflicting results. It doesn't really hurt to have Feral Howl, any LS fighting Cerberus should already have proper stunners for GOH, FH is just a small bonus.

Also Amigo's kick is just a regular attack. It just swings with a different part of it's body, and it's not an additional attack like it is with mnk (All sabotenders do this).

I understand that amigo is supposed to co-tank, but I'm sure the hate spikes would easily get it killed before timers are back up reducing it's effectiveness. To keep that pet out, all you have is call beast, and reward. Also reward, especially if you have a set for it, is going to cause a big enmity spike on your pet that you're trying to keep alive (same reason a bst doesn't use cure when he's getting beaten on to let pet take hate back). Then you also have the problem if you use the defensive gear with your pet, then the bst effectiveness suffers too. All these just make me think Amigo will die faster, and you'll end up with a less than effective bst.

I am quite sure Amigo uses kick attack, anyone who has soloed Cactrot Rapido will probably notice it too. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Amigo is still the best DD jug provided it's allowed to use 1k needle every 2 mins. Also fyi, despite being the most accurate jugpet, it doesn't hit as hard as Lars, unless you can get it to use 1k reliably, Lars will outparse Amigo in long run.

I guess you don't normally play tank jobs in HNM fight. Tanks are supposed to keep their emnity near cap throughout the entire fight, any damage infliced on Amigo will also drop its hate level. As long as your tanks are competent they should be able to pull hate off Amigo without even looking at its HP. The whole point of using Amigo/Funguar is for beast killer effect. Jugpet melee performance is not important because most of the damage output should come from melee and BLU. Overall, adding BST allows melee and BLU to maximise their damage output without any major hate issue and help your tanks to do their jobs better. Anything else is just small bonus that comes with the jobs (jugpet damage, feral howl etc).

[Furion]

More seigan and hasso... more..........