Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[requim]

If you guys read my post again I specifically mentioned Ready is only useful in merit party if 1000 needles only consumes one charge which means guaranteed 1000 damage every 2 mins.

Considering that they added the charged system at all I doubt you would be able to use it's strongest move at the same frequency of its weakest.

Basically you had a 1/2~1/3 chance to use 1000 needles every 2 minutes, now you have a guaranteed 1000 needles every 6 minutes (on a mob that will survive MAX 20 minutes).

BST is fucked regardless because every party will have stronger DDs getting fully buffed while BST is limited by a static pet. Of course if you had BSTs' and PUPs' getting those same buffs coupled with food, their damage would be too ridiculous.

Whens Part III coming out already? My SAM is already feeling left out.

[Keyln]

Sheesh, there's pessimism and then there's making stuff up.

First off, the SMN update changes the game rather dramatically. I think it puts SMN in the realm of COR and BRD, and out of the realm of RDM, WHM, and SCH which is where it should have been all along. Let's face it, SMN does not have the curing power that the other mage/healing jobs have. In fact, I could better draw a comparision between BRD, COR, and SMN than RDM, WHM, SCH, and SMN.

Of course, like everything else, the devil is in the details. There's a bunch of stuff we don't know. We don't know how long it'll take for the aura to hit full strength after the avatar's been summoned. We don't know how much of a hit the avatar's strength will take, and if it will affect all bloodpacts, just physical bloodpacts, or won't affect bloodpacts at all. We don't know how much perpetuation cost will be reduced when favor is up. A whole bunch of stuff that could make or break this update.

The same thing can be said of the BST update. Specifically, we have no idea which TP moves will require 3 charges, and people are automatically assuming the worst and thinking that the best TP moves will be the ones that require 3 charges. Now, while waiting 6 minutes for all 3 charges to come up is a bit harsh, I can't help think of the SCH change when before it was one charge every four minutes, and then SE changed it so that all charges are gained in four minutes. If people complain long enough, who's to say that SE won't change it to be the same way?

Finally, I have one last thought. The avatar aura update was something that SE mentioned way back when in the 2006 Fan Fest. It was in that same Fan Fest that SE mentioned new avatars. Does this mean that the new avatars are finally in this update?

[BahamutRicker]

Amigo most likely wont be the jug of choice for a bst that gets an invite to a merit party (lol).

1000 Needles is AoE so it will wake any slept mobs the brd has slept, also the damage dealt will be split between the targets it hits.

I guess we will have to wait and see how Ready actually works, but reading the update notes it seems you will have to wait 6 minutes between decent, 3 charge moves.

One thing that will be good is that you can stop your pet from doing AoE tp moves and aggroing nearby mobs.

[The Stig]

Sheesh, there's pessimism and then there's making stuff up.

First off, the SMN update changes the game rather dramatically. I think it puts SMN in the realm of COR and BRD, and out of the realm of RDM, WHM, and SCH which is where it should have been all along. Let's face it, SMN does not have the curing power that the other mage/healing jobs have. In fact, I could better draw a comparision between BRD, COR, and SMN than RDM, WHM, SCH, and SMN.

Of course, like everything else, the devil is in the details. There's a bunch of stuff we don't know. We don't know how long it'll take for the aura to hit full strength after the avatar's been summoned. We don't know how much of a hit the avatar's strength will take, and if it will affect all bloodpacts, just physical bloodpacts, or won't affect bloodpacts at all. We don't know how much perpetuation cost will be reduced when favor is up. A whole bunch of stuff that could make or break this update.

The same thing can be said of the BST update. Specifically, we have no idea which TP moves will require 3 charges, and people are automatically assuming the worst and thinking that the best TP moves will be the ones that require 3 charges. Now, while waiting 6 minutes for all 3 charges to come up is a bit harsh, I can't help think of the SCH change when before it was one charge every four minutes, and then SE changed it so that all charges are gained in four minutes. If people complain long enough, who's to say that SE won't change it to be the same way?

Finally, I have one last thought. The avatar aura update was something that SE mentioned way back when in the 2006 Fan Fest. It was in that same Fan Fest that SE mentioned new avatars. Does this mean that the new avatars are finally in this update?

lol


Best to be pessimistic because this is how SE moulded us with the way they manage all this. By being optimistic you're just asking for it. So now we take it into a form of entertainment and see just how correct our pessisism can get.

[Xoraken]

Feral howl dont work on Tiamat/Fafhogg/KBehemoth/Adaspi/Vtra/Jormungand/Cerberus/Hydra/Khimaira
tested by me (dont try on SW+DI but dont work i think)

Amigo most likely wont be the jug of choice for a bst that gets an invite to a merit party (lol).

1000 Needles is AoE so it will wake any slept mobs the brd has slept, also the damage dealt will be split between the targets it hits.

I prefer Homunculus' Head Butt than a fucking 1000 Needles AoE

[Valkrish]

Best failure ever guys.

[laverna]

lol


Best to be pessimistic because this is how SE moulded us with the way they manage all this. By being optimistic you're just asking for it. So now we take it into a form of entertainment and see just how correct our pessisism can get.

Or best not be pessimistic or optimistic and just take the facts for what they are till the specifics can be discovered, like being Objective.

As for speculating I have a feeling the the prep cost reduction will make the avatar free when paired with a HQ elemental staff at 55. I think this is why lvl 55 was picked as the lvl of choice and not 50 or lower.

[Destinye]

MNK,BLM or we no care

It's enjoyable watching BLM whine about getting updates they don't need, though.

[The Stig]

Why, what happens at 55?

Destinye: Don't forget MNK JSE! =p

[requim]

The picture of funguar's best two tp attacks requiring 6 minutes to be able to use, coupled with the fact that they are almost always resisted is not a screenshot that should herald optimism. It's replacing a probability to do several shitty attacks with the ability to consistently use a slightly less shitty tp attack of your choice. Being optimistic about a bst update is that it won't severely fuck up the job, not that it will be an improvement.

As far as being pessimistic or optimistic about the favors, at least it's a JA, so can't be worse than footwork. Even if the avatars are free, using any BPs or cures will can quickly deplete your MP. I'll be pleasantly surprised if this is even feasible for normal xp party.

I think Iaverna's logic was level 55 is the first common buff level after 51's ele staves. Tripple attack, rampage/slugwinder, etc, though level 50 would've been far more useful so you could use in sacrarium or any other capped events.

[Arcanesoul]

I guess you don't normally play tank jobs in HNM fight. Tanks are supposed to keep their emnity near cap throughout the entire fight, any damage infliced on Amigo will also drop its hate level. As long as your tanks are competent they should be able to pull hate off Amigo without even looking at its HP. The whole point of using Amigo/Funguar is for beast killer effect. Jugpet melee performance is not important because most of the damage output should come from melee and BLU. Overall, adding BST allows melee and BLU to maximise their damage output without any major hate issue and help your tanks to do their jobs better. Anything else is just small bonus that comes with the jobs (jugpet damage, feral howl etc).

You're right, I'm not a tank, but I feel I have some understanding of the mechanics. Perhaps not enough. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

My feeling is that what you're describing is this.
Enough time has passed that tank is at CE cap and only has VE then to get back hate.
Snarl's pass on the CE generated by Bst since the last snarl, current bst VE, any CE from the Blu's SATA'ed spells/hits, and the VE too generated minus the VE lost over time since the SATA to snarl. You've also got the bst pet losing CE any time it's hit, but because you're keeping it alive to keep it DD'ing at it's full potential, you reward it generating CE again, and some VE. This brings it closer to the tank again, and Snarl is going to create a big hate spike. Perhaps I'm overestimating the potential of the enmity transferred, but my general feeling is that by the time the tank's realised the hate spike is big enough to kill the pet, the pet will be dead (your argument is that Cerb will go back to the main tank after the hate spike right after 1 hit, right?). Maybe if the tank is uses their bag of tricks whenever snarl is used, but that may well be inefficient for the tank.

Either way, I'm not sure why I'm focusing on this. Even if it's viable, it's still not enough of an edge to generally invite bst even for something so specific.

Also does bst have access to any pet that doesn't have some aoe move? I think the closest we have is Panzer which has a conal move.

[Midnightjade]

For BST, I think they looked at how they could change the job for minimal effort and with minimal effects on the majority of party situations. That's how they've done things historically so it's really no surprise.

For example, in Nyzul Isle none of the mobs are charmable, negating a bunch of potentially interesting gameplay situations and forcing groups to stick to the standard party mechanics. Same for Apollyon/Temenos - they're not comfortable with a player using an Enhanced Tiger (e.g.) as an offensive weapon in there. Ditto for Field Parchment situations. Ditto for Al'Taieu - noncharmable (pink) goldfish, noncharmable (pink) squid.

SE has included a pet job in the game but is not prepared to allow the logical gameplay situations that arise from the job's inclusion. If they're not going to bother to think about how it works in events, it would have been better off not to put it in in the first place.

I think this was probably the last chance in the life of this game for BST to be made relevant to a party situation, and I'm pretty sure they just blew it, lol.

[Elesar]

What the dude above me just said. ^

Beastmaster on paper seems like such a kick ass job but it just fails to deliver at higher levels. I sometimes wonder how exactly the development team tests these jobs. I'm pretty sure they put a Beastmaster in half decent armor and have them fight mobs around that player's level. If that's the case then Beastmaster is one of the strongest jobs in the game but if they were to seriously look at a Beastmaster against anything that doesn't read Tough or easier they would realize that this job isn't as pretty as their "brilliant ideas sheet" claims to be.

Every single update I cross my fingers in hope that they do something that helps Beastmaster out and every single update I end up disappointed. This update I finally had something to really look forward to. It is unfortunate that this new update to Beastmaster is just not enough to make it even remotely useful at endgame events compared to other melee damage dealers. Sure it's nice that we can finally, after so many years, be able to pick our pet's TP move but that still doesn't change the fact that our jug pet's TP moves are weak against higher level mobs. What Beastmaster really needed was uncapped jug pets, higher accuracy + attack for jug pets, new jug pets with better TP moves, and of course being able to pick what TP move we want our pets to use.

I ask, Beastmaster is a job that controls the animals around him/her and uses these animals to fight along side him/her but what is a Beastermaster with weak animal allies?

[Shagoa]

It would be great to see charmable mobs put into the zones mentioned a few posts above me. I honestly thought going into Nyzul as whatever random job and seeing half the mobs are ones that are normally charmable outside the zone, that it would be amazing for BST. I finally was able to go to a lower floor as BST only to find out that they weren't charmable. Probably something with the way the mobs are all ITG in the zone. Such a noob I was.

I've used Amigo in a few situations, and even CC too. Amigo hits Kirin for pretty good damage (50-70 a hit) but parses at such a low ACC its shit. Since he never hits, he never has TP. CC hits for good damage even on things like Ultima but again with such crap ACC it doesn't matter.

If only we could get some kind of "Pet food: Sushi", that would be a step in the right direction. There's a lot more to the dynamic of BST that should be available and make the job a more desirable job for events.


*EDIT* accidentally said IT instead of impossible to gauge

[Karbuncle]

As far as being pessimistic or optimistic about the favors, at least it's a JA, so can't be worse than footwork. Even if the avatars are free, using any BPs or cures will can quickly deplete your MP. I'll be pleasantly surprised if this is even feasible for normal xp party.

If you're running out of MP with a free avatar from a few Bloodpacts and cures despite Sublimation, Elemental Siphon and/or Refresh, you just fail or you're party sucks way to hard and you should probably find a new one.

With natural 1/2/3MP Refresh (Jobtrait, Armor, Sigil/etc), stacked with Sublimation, you should be able to maintain a steady MP pool over time as long as you're not forced to spam Cure III (and again that means shitty party =/= shitty ability), and EVEN WITH spamming Cure III, with Refresh from Ballad or COR (Since Sub will not stack with RDM dur), you should be sitting at a 4~7MP Refresh, on top of Sublimation.

Elemental Siphon is more or less a "Oh fuck" ability, as it requires the desummoning of you're current Avatar, which defeats the purpose, however its still a means to recover MP.

[Calintzpso]

Way back in TheFlock, I've hit Ulli, Zip, Olla, and Despot with Feral Howl and had it land.

Int helped it land. Just like Int helps Tame Land.

Chr helps its duration Stun effect.

However its a instant use, so you gotta decide, land it and not have it last or chance it's land and make it last.

[Taruking]

You're right, I'm not a tank, but I feel I have some understanding of the mechanics. Perhaps not enough. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Either way, I'm not sure why I'm focusing on this. Even if it's viable, it's still not enough of an edge to generally invite bst even for something so specific.

Also does bst have access to any pet that doesn't have some aoe move? I think the closest we have is Panzer which has a conal move.

Snarl may put Amigo at capped CE and VE, but Amigo won't be able to maintain the hate cap since jugpet has relatively low melee accuracy. Having said that it's going to be quite a challenge for tanks to maintain such high level of emnity against fast hitting mobs like Cerberus. If you are worried about losing Amigo too soon just stick to funguar.

All 3 TAU kings and Wyrms have access to nasty tp moves specifically designed to punish players who pull hate from behind. BLU/THF will benefit most from this setup, good BLU can land 1k+ SA cannonball on Cerberus, without feeding too much TP to cerberus or getting themselves killed.

I only mention this example to prove that BST is not as hopeless as ppl think. The job obviously still need a lot of work, it does have some unique features which can be used in endgame battles, ppl just need to look harder and give the job a chance to perform.

As for aoe TP moves, it's really not that big a problem, provided you don't use 1k needles right in the middle of a group of 5 Greater colibri. Mobs should die in less than 30 secs, if you accidentally wake the slept mob just let Amigo tank a bit, melee can easily voke it off Amigo when the party is ready to fight again.

[Shin Volcano]

I cannot believe people are complaining about the SMN update. You guys aren't even reading it. It says over time the buff increases and at its peak its about as strong as a COR's lucky roll. This means that buffs like the diabolos's favor will be at least 3 mp per tic. This is way better than a new avatar. What is a new avatar gonna do? We're gonna get even more abilities that are tied up on the same 45 second recast timers? I'm not saying i don't want a new avatar, but its not gonna fix the job. I know this isn't the direction people wanted the job to go in, but really i think its a good thing. They may still add a new avatar. It wouldn't have been mentioned with the job adjustments. They may add another fortune with a new avatar.

Altho i don't really care all that much about new avatars i do admit i'd like a Pericing damage avatr, as the only 2 pericing attacks are cresent fang and claw, which are both very weak.

[requim]

If you're running out of MP with a free avatar from a few Bloodpacts and cures despite Sublimation, Elemental Siphon and/or Refresh, you just fail or you're party sucks way to hard and you should probably find a new one.

I was replying to non-merits since as discussed earlier the difference between a 75 summoner with good skill/gear/merits and your typical summoner are miles, miles apart.

Take away sublimation and halve your expected siphons, which leaves you heavily reliant on having to rest for MP. Unless I'm missing some sort of secret tactic lower level summoners use, you can't willy nilly main heal and get much use out of your avatars.

[Silenka]

Altho i don't really care all that much about new avatars i do admit i'd like a Pericing damage avatr, as the only 2 pericing attacks are cresent fang and claw, which are both very weak.

And poison nails =(