Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Tsuko_Asura]

SMN DNC BRD DDx3 sup?

You forgot the corsair broseph

[setzor]

level something else...fuck...

[evilpaul]

And poison nails =(

I'm pretty sure none of these "piercing attacks" worked on Temperance when I tried them...

[Taruking]

When will people learn that there's not much difference between a SMN/WHM or SMN/SCH healing and a BRD/WHM healing or a COR/WHM healing? The only real difference is that the SMN has a larger MP bar...and that's about it. All three jobs have abilities/spells that heal outside of their subjobs, but they have a limited effect, and they all chew up valuable resources (rolls, songs, bloodpact timers).

With this new update, I think it's high time that we stop putting Summoner in the same job as Scholar, Red Mage, White Mage, and even Dancer, and start putting Summoner in the same camp as Bard and Corsair. I think that the assessment that Summoner is more like a Corsair with a MP bar is highly accurate, and it should be stopped being seen as a healer-with-a-roll, as it does not accurately describe Summoner at all.

SMN has autorefresh JT, both SMN and BRD can wear far more MP, hpm gear compared to COR and have access to body pieces that add autorefresh. Healing ruby II is one of the most MP efficient form of curaga. Spring water is = esuna.

The biggest benefit BRD and COR bring to exp party is their ability to pull and sleep mob at camp. The new update makes RDM and SMN interchangeable (at least in exp setting). If you have BRD or COR but can't find RDM, invite SMN to mainheal. If you can't get either of those and no RDM is seeking, use SMN + WHM or SMN + SCH.

[Istun GA's]

im just jealous as a blm that i get no new ja's or anything smns be happy you always got smn burns anyway!

[Silenka]

I'm pretty sure none of these "piercing attacks" worked on Temperance when I tried them...

Oops you're right, poison nails is slashing. I keep thinking it's piercing because...well, it should be, it's a nail >.> Claw and Crescent Fang are terrible as well though. I enjoy crescent fang on temp more than claw. Haven't fought temp in an age and a half though...

[ClarkSammich]

You forgot the corsair broseph

Nah, Caith Sith will be the new avatar with the favor being +25% exp.

[Andradi]

SMN DNC BRD DDx3 sup?

Swap the DD for DNC instead of the COR. Merited haste samba is fucking awesome and (on birds at least) DNC is a pretty capable DD.

[frodnonnag]

looking at it, as much as i don't want to not use hastega, the best two "leave avatars out and use their bp buff only" are ramuh with rolling thunder, and ifrit with crimson howl. both will easily be refreshing by at least 3 a tic + whatever i get from the new ability.

it will just need to be known how much of a boost at the initial summon does these aoe give, how long they need to be out to cap, and how much of a cap they give to decide if it is worth it to give up hastega completely for ramuh/ifrit's aoe, or to just swap to garuda every 3 minutes to reset it.

[requim]

Haste = 15%
Fighter's = 12~18%
Rogue's = 12~18%

Pretty sure even at max lucky, you still want haste more. The more realistic question will be if it is actually worth it to bother with the favors at all instead of freely switching between summons.

Hastega + Ecliptic Howl (good moon) > lolfavors

Yup, it's completely dependent upon the amount of time it takes to build up the buff, but I don't see it ever justifying leaving an avatar out for longer than your hastega duration, which means you're going to be getting max 2.5 minutes worth of a buff that will only peak at a corsair's lucky effectiveness. At the very least it should save you mp even if you're only using avatars for BP wards.

[Lildrama]

aoe refresh on smn D: ! cant wait

[frodnonnag]

Haste = 15%
Fighter's = 12~18%
Rogue's = 12~18%

Pretty sure even at max lucky, you still want haste more. The more realistic question will be if it is actually worth it to bother with the favors at all instead of freely switching between summons.

Hastega + Ecliptic Howl (good moon) > lolfavors

any melee worth their salt and in the ideal setup would already have capped acc from other sources, especially considering everything is already practically set up for party setups excluding summoners. so from my point of view, it would be better to either do hastega and howl with ifrit out, or hastega and rolling thunder with ramuh out, or just fuck hastega and keep the avatars out for max aoe and 100% crimson howl. My opinion on this all hinges on how much of a boost each aoe gives, how long it takes to cap, and how much perp- the ability gives.

[Spider-Dan]

What requim is saying (and I agree with) is that we already know the cap of Favor potency (lucky roll), and that cap is not worth losing Haste, so you're going to need to renew Hastega either way. However, since the Haste-ing competition for SMN (RDM and WHM) have no kind of +2A or +crit buff at all, regardless of how long Favors take to build to max potency, Favors will just be icing on the cake (from an offensive standpoint).

The question really comes down to whether SMN's superior buffing capability (compared to RDM or WHM) will be worth their inferior healing capability (compared to the same). And the Favor potency progression will be a factor in determining that.

[frodnonnag]

What requim is saying (and I agree with) is that we already know the cap of Favor potency (lucky roll), and that cap is not worth losing Haste, so you're going to need to renew Hastega either way. However, since the Haste-ing competition for SMN (RDM and WHM) have no kind of +2A or +crit buff at all, regardless of how long Favors take to build to max potency, Favors will just be icing on the cake (from an offensive standpoint).

The question really comes down to whether SMN's superior buffing capability (compared to RDM or WHM) will be worth their inferior healing capability (compared to the same). And the Favor potency progression will be a factor in determining that.

i'll wait for actual data of the amounts and rate it grows before tossing them in favor of hastega. speculation is just a point of view.

[Spider-Dan]

What speculation are you talking about?

Squenix directly stated that Favors cap out at the potency of a Lucky Roll.
We know what Lucky Roll potencies are.
Lucky Roll potencies are not worth giving up 15% haste.

The only "speculation" is whether it's equal to Lucky Roll with or without the job bonus, but even with the job bonus, it's still not worth giving up 15% Haste.

I don't see where speculation is even a factor.

[Shin Volcano]

SMN has autorefresh JT, both SMN and BRD can wear far more MP, hpm gear compared to COR and have access to body pieces that add autorefresh. Healing ruby II is one of the most MP efficient form of curaga. Spring water is = esuna.

??? i'm not sure you understand smn your self, 1st off: Spring water is bascialy all Nas in one (except viruna), not esuna, and no matter how much MP gear they both can wear, they still only have access to cure 1-3 curaga 1-2 and only if there sub is WHM, in no way shape or form can they or will they ever match up to whm, sch, rdm,

The biggest benefit BRD and COR bring to exp party is their ability to pull and sleep mob at camp. The new update makes RDM and SMN interchangeable (at least in exp setting). If you have BRD or COR but can't find RDM, invite SMN to mainheal. If you can't get either of those and no RDM is seeking, use SMN + WHM or SMN + SCH.

See above, SMN is NOT a main healer, dont try to replace a real healer job as one, SMN is a buffer/dd JOB, altho this is poor at low levels and they are forced to take the shity role as sub-par healer too just get EXP, it only goes so far, they are simply a poor substitute as a healing job. healer by abusing thier MP pool to spam hate building cures. if you cant find a rdm, wh, sch to main heal, then you simply DON'T HAVE A MAIN HEALER at that point, you just need somone who can toss some cures to get by. which in all honesty a Blm/whm can do. at the same rate as a smn. This update is trying to change that sad role they have now. unfortunalty, i doubt it will still be enough, as old habit don't fade that fast, when ppl are desparate for a healer, they will still look for smn in that wrong mideset of it being a main healer.

[Dooom]

One thing worth noting is that all these other jobs smn is being compared to - whm, rdm, cor, brd, sch - in healing and buffing roles is that all these other jobs have native sleeps; smn does not. A small point, but sometimes in merits as brd I've had a bad link or resist, and my whm throwing out a repose, or a light shot from cor, or a sleep1 have saved my skin. Summoner needs to use ward charges to sleep, and they're all AoE. I would *love* to say this update has made me consider smn equal to other jobs for healing or buffing... but it hasn't, and this is coming from someone who is levelling summoner and loves it. However, it will probably make people a bit more willing to party with one, even if they're still barely above blm in terms of invites.

This is ignoring /sch for smn though, as I'm just talking about native sleeps, without relying on subjob, even if it's a viable one.

It's going to be in endgame that these favors shine imo. If nothing else, I could build a dynamis blm party of smn and 5 blms, put a rdm I'd have normally put with the blms in another group where they can be more useful and not have a 6-man refresh cycle, and just have the smn full-time diabolos.

[Keyln]

SMN has autorefresh JT, both SMN and BRD can wear far more MP, hpm gear compared to COR and have access to body pieces that add autorefresh.

As I said before

The only real difference is that the SMN has a larger MP bar...and that's about it.

Those things only add to the SMN's MP, but it doesn't add to their healing capabilities. The best healing ability SMN has natively is Healing Ruby II, and that's really about it. When it comes to healing, the real muscle comes from the /WHM, which is also accessible to COR and BRD. A SMN/WHM or a SMN/SCH just simply does not have the healing abilities that the other jobs have, such as WHM, RDM, DNC, and SCH, and even PUP. If things go wrong, such as a poorly timed Pecking Flurry, there isn't much a SMN can do about it.

Healing ruby II is one of the most MP efficient form of curaga. Spring water is = esuna.

The problem with relying on BPs for healing is two fold:

A) It's very slow. Unless the right avatar is out at that moment, it takes about 8 seconds to summon, a second or two to position the avatar, and a few more seconds to get the BP off. In the same amount of time, a real mage could cast a cure spell to do the same thing in far less time.

B) It's an ineffecient use of resources. Using a BP ward chews up a BP which could be used to Haste the party, give Warcry, or Ecliptic howl, or some other BP. After using a BP, it'll be another 45 seconds at least before sending out another Ward BP.

The biggest benefit BRD and COR bring to exp party is their ability to pull and sleep mob at camp.

Speaking from experience, SMN can pull pretty well also. I've done it with birds.

The new update makes RDM and SMN interchangeable (at least in exp setting). If you have BRD or COR but can't find RDM, invite SMN to mainheal. If you can't get either of those and no RDM is seeking, use SMN + WHM or SMN + SCH.

Having a SMN main heal is asking for trouble. A poorly timed Pecking Flurry can make things really really difficult, and it would be much better for another job, such as RDM, WHM, or SCH, to take care of healing. One thing I do agree, though, is that a SCH + SMN is a very good combo, and can cover everything needed for a great party with offensive and defensive enhancements.

[Karbuncle]

I kept thinking about it, and SMN isn't an amazing DD between 55~70 When the Melee really pick up their game, in Gear and weaponskills... but other than that level Range, they can hold their own, with just Fenrir alone.

Fenrir is the best avatar in terms of damage we have pre-70BPs. He has a cheap MP cost, his BPs are quick, hes stronger than the others by a good amount too. Fenrir can hold his own especially well in the earlier levels of partying... i mean of course roughly 10~50. his only 2 Physical BPs pre 65 are amazingly accurate and powerful for their level. Crescent Fang(paralyzes) and Moonlight Charge(Blinds) both cost very very cost effective. The only thing holding us back, despite his low perp cost, is that we'll eventually have to rest, that will put us out of the game for a good 1-2 Fights, cutting our effectiveness as a "DD" significantly.

In the end, its the Perp cost. a good SMN can maintain an avatar for a good amount of time, but no matter how good you are at conserving MP, you'll eventually have to heal it back, which despite the best "Clear Mind" and HMP+ gear will take at least 1 fight at early levels, especially Pre-Refresh :\.

This Ability itself starts at 55, about the same level as i stated before DD pick up, Birds come into play (not counting E.Ronf ⌐⌐), we can only hopes the perp- is powerful enough and the effects build up quickly enough that Reapplying Hastega every 3 minutes won't make the JA completely useless...

But we all know this already ~.~;

[Taruking]

??? i'm not sure you understand smn your self, 1st off: Spring water is bascialy all Nas in one (except viruna), not esuna, and no matter how much MP gear they both can wear, they still only have access to cure 1-3 curaga 1-2 and only if there sub is WHM, in no way shape or form can they or will they ever match up to whm, sch, rdm,

See above, SMN is NOT a main healer, dont try to replace a real healer job as one, SMN is a buffer/dd JOB, altho this is poor at low levels and they are forced to take the shity role as sub-par healer too just get EXP, it only goes so far, they are simply a poor substitute as a healing job. healer by abusing thier MP pool to spam hate building cures. if you cant find a rdm, wh, sch to main heal, then you simply DON'T HAVE A MAIN HEALER at that point, you just need somone who can toss some cures to get by. which in all honesty a Blm/whm can do. at the same rate as a smn. This update is trying to change that sad role they have now. unfortunalty, i doubt it will still be enough, as old habit don't fade that fast, when ppl are desparate for a healer, they will still look for smn in that wrong mideset of it being a main healer.

You need to read the quote in my post before you make any comment that makes you look stupid, we are comparing SMN vs BRD/WHM vs COR/WHM, nothing to do with RDM, WHM or SCH you smart head.

You just contradict yourself. Any job whose main responsibility is to keep your member alive IS a mainhealer and any mage job who has access to cure III and a decent size MP pool can be a main healer provided the person who play the job know what they are doing and the rest of the party are not retarded. RDM is not designed to be a mainhealer and yet it's the most popular choice. SMN's BP can deal damage and buff party members but that's not what ppl invite them for because there are other jobs in this game which can do those things better. Ppl invite SMN to mainheal because there is a severe shortage of healer type jobs on most servers and it will always be the case.

SMNs are meant to be a highly versatile job and should be able to fill in DD/enhancer/healer role when the need arises. Saying that SMN should never be a mainhealer just mean you don't even know how to play the job properly.