Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Taruking]

also no diffrence between nin/whm war/whm, sam/whm blu/whm, it's a diffrence of MP what's your point? in other words, this is a no brainer thing. didn't need to be quoted or acknowledged.

Do you actually read the whole arguement? There is significance difference between a SMN/WHM, BRD/WHM and COR/WHM in term of healing power. Yes all 3 jobs can only cast cure III and regen from WHM SJ but being a good healer is more than spamming cure 3. MP regen is a big issue, which job is likely to keep the party going longer without breaking chain? SMN/WHM is clearly the best option among those 3 jobs thanks to autorefresh JT/gear, MP gear and elemental siphon. Also how can you say there is no difference between melee/WHM and BLU/WHM healer? Magic Fruit and healing breeze are some of the most MP efficient healing magic in this game. BLU have much bigger MP pool and access to autorefresh JT and morrigan body/af2 body. I guess it takes more brain to understand than you thought.

My point is that the healing spot is, and has been, a poor spot for Summoner, and they can do better in the support spot, even more so after this patch. When it comes to healing with /WHM, any job that has access to MP gear can sub WHM to heal. SMN isn't that special. BRDs been doing it, and I've even seen COR do it as well. This is why SMN in the healing spot is rather poor.

Before Nov patch, no matter how you slice it, SMN without WHM SJ is a fairly weak DD/buffer/healer, 2 BPs every 45-60 secs are not enough to justify a party spot. Most of their DD/enhancing BPs are worthless compared to other jobs. Thanks to their large MP pool/autorefresh JT/elemental siphon and the utilities of WHM SJ, SMN can be a competent healer in EXP party and the job is more suited to be a mainhealer + 2ndline support.

BRD/WHM can heal but you won't make BRD/WHM the mainhealer because the job's buffing capacity is significantly better than its healing ability. SMN will always be more efficient filling mainhealer spot even after Nov update. If you still struggle to understand such a simple concept, I suggest you make a mid 50-60 exp party, invite a SMN to pull and buff your party, get a BRD/WHM to mainheal, I bet you will soon find the 2 jobs switching roles without getting your permission.

[Shin Volcano]

Do you actually read the whole arguement? There is significance difference between a SMN/WHM, BRD/WHM and COR/WHM in term of healing power. Yes all 3 jobs can only cast cure III and regen from WHM SJ but being a good healer is more than spamming cure 3. MP regen is a big issue, which job is likely to keep the party going longer without breaking chain? SMN/WHM is clearly the best option among those 3 jobs thanks to autorefresh JT/gear, MP gear and elemental siphon. Also how can you say there is no difference between melee/WHM and BLU/WHM healer? Magic Fruit and healing breeze are some of the most MP efficient healing magic in this game. BLU have much bigger MP pool and access to autorefresh JT and morrigan body/af2 body. I guess it takes more brain to understand than you thought.

obviously you lack common sense,i was refering to what those job have access from there sub, don't mention shit like magic fruit and healing breeze from blu, thats OBVIOUS from what blus can do, that was supposed to be an exclusion. now you're getting into how blu can heal, when all i did was state examples of who can main heal with there SJ, looks like it isn't you that's reading at all. ill explain it more clearly since you dont see to comphrehend well, THERE IS NO DIFFRENCE BETWEEN THOSE JOBS AS /WHM, NOT THERE OWN NATIVE ABILITES/SPELLS, again,

SMN is still limited, in term is healing at high levels, who gives a shit about how well you can heal in a level 30 exp pt. try something like say mamools or bird camp with a smn main healer, and see how far you get. because in those same cases, a blu can very well be a better main healer, and as far as siphon goes, that still depends on your smn magic skill, so if you havnt been keeping up with your skill levels, it's not going to get you very far, read between the damn lines.

Before Nov patch, no matter how you slice it, SMN without WHM SJ is a fairly weak DD/buffer/healer, 2 BPs every 45-60 secs are not enough to justify a party spot. Most of their DD/enhancing BPs are worthless compared to other jobs. Thanks to their large MP pool/autorefresh JT/elemental siphon and the utilities of WHM SJ, SMN can be a competent healer in EXP party and the job is more suited to be a mainhealer + 2ndline support.

Weither you noticed this or not, you just explained why SMN is limited, but ill correct what im sure you missed, without WHM sub, they can't even attempt to main heal, as there only means of healing is thru avatars, there dd and buffing is not effected, since when is there dd and buffing affected from whm sub? protect 2? you really should try exp pts as a "main healing" smn with things higher then T-VT

again, EXP PARTIES ARE NOT HARD, it's idioit proof, so yes, you can heal at an exceptable manner, my problem is, don't compare smn in anyway, shape or form, to whm, sch, and rdm, because they don't come anywhere near close. and never will. they have ALL that MP for a reason, and it's to support the massive MP usage they use from Blood pacts.

[Taruking]

Acttualy, i will agree with you here, leveling SMN was the worst exp iv ever had in this game,80% of them were terrible, i had to make most of my pts, to be a terrible SMN you have to do nothing but cure, but even still, its hard to acttualy be bad at smn aside gear choices. like i said many times, exp pts are NOT HARD so being able to get away with healing as smn can still be done, im explaing to him that its not what a true smn does. i dont know what your idea of a terrible smn is, but one spaming cures acting like a whm sure and shit isnt a good one. that's being a good "WHM"

But if you want a choice, id have to give you the terrible pts i leveld smn back in 06 if that matters. out of all the pts i had, only 2 were good, and they conisted of a whm+smn +various DDs TP does have an effect, because back then you had no way in hell of keeping skill anywhere near caped unless you spent days summong and releasing in al zhabi or somthing, and very few smns would actually keep up with summoning skill between levels.

It's obvious that you level SMN because you want to spam BP and deal damage. It also shows that you do not even understand the basic design of the job.

SMN mainhealer is not WHM. WHM can't boost your melee's accuracy or deal 1k damage without feeding TP target mob. The job is supposed to be versatile and be able to adjust the playstyle based on party setup and MP usage. With current party dynamics, the best approach is to focus on healing and use any spare MP to deal DD or buff your party members. SMNs who refuse to cure or use BPs are not using the job to its maximal potential.

[Shin Volcano]

It's obvious that you level SMN because you want to spam BP and deal damage. It also shows that you do not even understand the basic design of the job.

SMN mainhealer is not WHM. WHM can't boost your melee's accuracy or deal 1k damage without feeding TP target mob. The job is supposed to be versatile and be able to adjust the playstyle based on party setup and MP usage. With current party dynamics, the best approach is to focus on healing and use any spare MP to deal DD or buff your party members. SMNs who refuse to cure or use BPs are not using the job to its maximal potential.

WTF do smn buffs have to do with main healing? that's BUFFING not healing, using summoner toi t's maximum potential is LEARNING HOW TO USE ALL YOUR AVATARS IN VARIOUS SITUATIONS, get off this false healing bs, SMN who refuse to buff are not using the job proprly, one who refuse to main heal are rebelling on trying to use smn at what it isn't suppossed to be doing, i am pretty convinced you are the one that dosn't understand smn outside of spaming your cure macros and smiling, tbh im done with convo, iv used smn's full potentional for a while now,because it is my MAIN and 1st 75 job, looks like you still have a ways to go. because i know what do in every sitiuation with it, if my ls needs a main healer, i USE WHM, all you just did was decribe how to buff. carry on with your mess.

[Taruking]

obviously you lack common sense,i was refering to what those job have access from there sub, don't mention shit like magic fruit and healing breeze from blu, thats OBVIOUS from what blus can do, that was supposed to be an exclusion. now you're getting into how blu can heal, when all i did was state examples of who can main heal with there SJ, looks like it isn't you that's reading at all. ill explain it more clearly since you dont see to comphrehend well, THERE IS NO DIFFRENCE BETWEEN THOSE JOBS AS /WHM, NOT THERE OWN NATIVE ABILITES/SPELLS, again

Are you stupid or what? Based on your theory, WHM should be the best healer because they have cure IV/V and higher tier regen/curaga. Being a good healer IS NOT all about how many type of cure spells you can cast. There IS a huge difference between SMN/WHM, COR/WHM and BRD/WHM healer. Next time invite a COR/WHM to mainheal your party and come back tell us what your party have to say.

SMN is still limited, in term is healing at high levels, who gives a shit about how well you can heal in a level 30 exp pt. try something like say mamools or bird camp with a smn main healer, and see how far you get. because in those same cases, a blu can very well be a better main healer, and as far as siphon goes, that still depends on your smn magic skill, so if you havnt been keeping up with your skill levels, it's not going to get you very far, read between the damn lines.

I have played RDM, SMN and WHM to 75 and any competent player can easily handle main healing in exp party. If you put a SMN and WHM side by side and get them to spam cure, SMN can potentially outcure WHM in long run. On the other hand, you need to get your head examined if you think SMN is anywhere near melee and BRD/COR when it comes to DD/buffing capacity. Stop trying to defend your opinion just because you hate being a main healer.

Weither you noticed this or not, you just explained why SMN is limited, but ill correct what im sure you missed, without WHM sub, they can't even attempt to main heal, as there only means of healing is thru avatars, there dd and buffing is not effected, since when is there dd and buffing affected from whm sub? protect 2? you really should try exp pts as a "main healing" smn with things higher then T-VT

SJ is supposed to enhance your main job. Based on your theory PLD and NIN must have sucked compared to WAR since they only get provoke from WAR SJ, without it their abilities to hold hate is significantly reduced?
SMN is capable of dealing damage, buffing and healing party, WHM SJ just tips the edge and makes the job best suited to healer role, if you still fail to understand such a simple concept, next time don't sub any healing SJ when you are heading out for LS event or exp party and come back to tell us how useful your SMN could be.

[Taruking]

WTF do smn buffs have to do with main healing? that's BUFFING not healing, using summoner toi t's maximum potential is LEARNING HOW TO USE ALL YOUR AVATARS IN VARIOUS SITUATIONS, get off this false healing bs, SMN who refuse to buff are not using the job proprly, one who refuse to main heal are rebelling on trying to use smn at what it isn't suppossed to be doing, i am pretty convinced you are the one that dosn't understand smn outside of spaming your cure macros and smiling, tbh im done with convo, iv used smn's full potentional for a while now,because it is my MAIN and 1st 75 job, looks like you still have a ways to go. because i know what do in every sitiuation with it, if my ls needs a main healer, i USE WHM, all you just did was decribe how to buff. carry on with your mess.

So tell me what's so great about SMN's BP that exp party should sacrifice a party spot to invite a SMN who can only use 2 BPs every 45-60 secs?

SMN like you make me cry in exp party, it's like saying BRD/WHM and BLM/WHM should never cure and melee/WAR should never use provoke in exp party.

[Shin Volcano]

SJ is supposed to enhance your main job. Based on your theory PLD and NIN must have sucked compared to WAR since they only get provoke from WAR SJ, without it their abilities to hold hate is significantly reduced?
SMN is capable of dealing damage, buffing and healing party, WHM SJ just tips the edge and makes the job best suited to healer role, if you still fail to understand such a simple concept, next time don't sub any healing SJ when you are heading out for LS event or exp party and come back to tell us how useful your SMN could be.

ill just respond to this part because it was the most stupid one.

if you honestly think im going to main heal as smn when i have 3 BETTER suited job that can do the job far better, you are more retarded then i thought, iv been there, done that 3 years ago, youa re still learning it seems, when im using smn in events im DDING AND BUFFING, WE HAVE REAL JOBS THAT TAKE CARE OF HEALING, are you seriously this simple minded? i'v learned SMN, come back to me when you do.

seriously, you're making my head hurt, not bothering anymore, when your smn is past 50, let me know.

[Taruking]

ill just respond to this part because it was the most stupid one.

if you honestly think im going to main heal as smn when i have 3 BETTER suited job that can do the job far better, you are more retarded then i thought, iv been there, done that 3 years ago, youa re still learning it seems, when im using smn in events im DDING AND BUFFING, WE HAVE REAL JOBS THAT TAKE CARE OF HEALING, are you seriously this simple minded? i'v learned SMN, come back to me when you do.

seriously, you're making my head hurt, not bothering anymore, when your smn is past 50, let me know.

First of all, the only job that has significant advantage over SMN is RDM. There is very little difference between a SMN, WHM and SCH healer in exp party. If you don't believe me read some of the response in this thread. In fact SMN is likely to beat WHM and SCH after Nov update.

What other role is SMN more suited to if you don't invite SMN to mainheal + throw out DD/enhancing BP? Should SMN replace one of the 10+ DD jobs, or BRD, or COR?

SMN may not be the best main healer job out there but it's still the only job that can handle mainhealing reasonably well and have the ability to buff and deal damage at the same time. Learn how to play your job to maximum. Just because ppl invite SMN to mainheal doesn't mean you should not use spare MP to enhance your party's performance.

P/S my SMN has been 75 for more than 4 years, you should probably level WHM and SCH to see the result yourself

[Acturus]

SMN may not be the best main healer job out there but it's still the only job that can handle mainhealing reasonably well and have the ability to buff and deal damage at the same time. Learn how to play your job to maximum. Just because ppl invite SMN to mainheal doesn't mean you should not use spare MP to enhance your party's performance.

The level of absurdity in this statement is fantastic. I think the thread gets it. You're trying your hardest to defend the job class in one more useless debate that is hashing out the same thing that Summoners have had to deal since the job class was released.

A Summoner's ability to perform X role is heavily dependant on the other 5 jobs. For as long as I played the job class, every intelligent discussion about the job class and the roles it would assume in an experience points party were rooted in this point of view. Summoner is not the only job classes that has to talk from this point of view, but it's one of the more heavily influeced job classes.

It's been widely regarded for forever and a day that Summoners who "main heal" parties do well when the party doesn't need to be healed much at all. To say that SMN is the "only job that can handle mainhealing [...] and have the ability to buff and deal damage" is terrible generalization of the job class.

Summoners themselves have had to build this noble fantasy about how awesome they are in parties because they get a Rage pact and a Ward pact every ~46 seconds in addition to a subjob-fueled Cure III, and it still doesn't cut the mustard to the pure efficiency afforded by other jobs in the position.

Summoners in EXP parties fail compared to other job classes because they are slow, and they are not specialized. This is why a player who is using EXP parties as justification for X ability or practice as a Summoner is throwing up a road flare to reveal his ignorance. You don't judge Lance Armstrong's competitiveness on his ability to devour a hot dog, and a Summoner is not utilized to the best of its ability in a merit party.

I swear that the only thing worse than the people who try to tear the Summoner job class to pieces are the people who try to defend it.

[requim]

So Orochi Lede says SMN can heal the now pathetically easy XP parties and that it's not a very good example to compare against.

Then multiple people argue they can main heal wimpy XP parties as if there was some sort of argument present. My drk has main healed parties before, when you're fighting super squishy things cure 3 generally suffices, but no one cares about mediocre XP parties. Pre-merits the likelihood smn can keep hastega up is limited compared to a rdm/whm who can at least prioritize hasting the tank.

Tangent of dancer in merits, I've never understood why they aren't more common. All you need to do is have your DB'd mage out of party hasting and you can get obscenely high attack speeds (considering the high population of players who quit, DBing is uber common these days). Even if dancers tend to be mad mediocre, isn't the increase of 3 solid DDs getting 10% more "haste" going to be substantial?

[Taruking]

The level of absurdity in this statement is fantastic. I think the thread gets it. You're trying your hardest to defend the job class in one more useless debate that is hashing out the same thing that Summoners have had to deal since the job class was released.

A Summoner's ability to perform X role is heavily dependant on the other 5 jobs. For as long as I played the job class, every intelligent discussion about the job class and the roles it would assume in an experience points party were rooted in this point of view. Summoner is not the only job classes that has to talk from this point of view, but it's one of the more heavily influeced job classes.

It's been widely regarded for forever and a day that Summoners who "main heal" parties do well when the party doesn't need to be healed much at all. To say that SMN is the "only job that can handle mainhealing [...] and have the ability to buff and deal damage" is terrible generalization of the job class.

Summoners themselves have had to build this noble fantasy about how awesome they are in parties because they get a Rage pact and a Ward pact every ~46 seconds in addition to a subjob-fueled Cure III, and it still doesn't cut the mustard to the pure efficiency afforded by other jobs in the position.

Summoners in EXP parties fail compared to other job classes because they are slow, and they are not specialized. This is why a player who is using EXP parties as justification for X ability or practice as a Summoner is throwing up a road flare to reveal his ignorance. You don't judge Lance Armstrong's competitiveness on his ability to devour a hot dog, and a Summoner is not utilized to the best of its ability in a merit party.

I swear that the only thing worse than the people who try to tear the Summoner job class to pieces are the people who try to defend it.

I don't even know what you are trying to prove. The whole point of the discussion is to determine the most efficient role of a SMN in exp party (pure DD/buffing vs mainhealer + backup support). We are not here to decide whether a SMN should replace RDM, WHM or SCH.

I have been a lv75 RDM, WHM and SMN for at least 3 years+ and I don't see a huge differenece between SMN and WHM in exp/merit party. In good exp party where healing need is low, having a SMN is likely to benefit your party more compared to say WHM because SMN can spend extra MP to deal damage and buff party members.

SMN is the only job that can handle main healing and buff party/deal damage at the same time. I use this fact to emphasise my point that the most efficient way to play the job is to focus on healing and use spare MP to DD and buff party members. I am not saying that exp party should invite SMN over WHM or SCH. May be you should stop jumping into conclusion and read the whole post?

[requim]

Taruking, do you have any parses of your main healing, buffing, and dealing damage?

Pretty sure one of those things is not like the other. Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that in most parties you can't afford to do all three of those, and dealing damage was definitely not on the agenda for meriting.

Plus it seems like a stretch to even consider it a buffing job in XP when hastega is a given, accuracy is generally not an issue (plus most of the time ecliptic H/G suck), which leaves enthunder or +stats, both far inferior to a bard or corsair. Favors haven't been implemented yet, so when looking at an XP party that summoner is really just a sufficient healing job. Outside of XP, smn is a completely different job.

[Destinye]

when looking at an XP party that summoner is really just a sufficient healing job.

If you've played long enough, you should know: Any job that can cast cure is a sufficient healing job. That was the general mentality most people had, then it slowly trickled down to: Any job with Haste is a sufficient healing job and the only job(s) to get invited, which is why jobs that CAN heal well e.g SCH and SMN will start losing invites very very quickly over WHM and RDM, then it ended up as: Any job that can cast haste and doesn't require healing downtime is the only healer. Which means every job that isn't RDM typically gets invites at most ranges except for 'end' ranges in parties, which is usually when people start fapping over efficiency instead of actually inviting anyone that isn't a RDM, WAR, COR, BRD or SAM.

Outside of parties yeah, SMN is a diff job..so is SCH. Also requiem, why did you even compare SMN to COR/BRD? Two totally different jobs. There's no 'superiority' or 'inferiority' when they're not the same job type.

[requim]

It was in response to taruking and others trying to argue summoner as a versatile class, which I still don't even buy. If someone else is going to claim it's a hybrid DD/buffer and most of the wards are super mediocre and don't even compare to the pure buffers, ie brd/cor, than it leaves smn in the limbo of mediocre at all for XP. The favors are definitely more of a buffing aspect of smn, but since we don't know the limitations on it, that still leaves smn in a terrible spot for XP uses.

I'm fond of smn, and I can definitely see the use of it in merits, but the harsh fact is there's still next to no reason to invite them before 75.

[Toth]

Lucky Dancer roll does heal 11 hp/ tick so a Carby favor at full strength will match that. Combine that with 45 second Healing Ruby 2s and no perp cost should handle all healing needs as a SMN. Of course you would sacrifice other favors and DD pacts but if you role is solely to main heal, you will now have one heck of an option.

[Malacite]

I demand DNC be added to Homam already.

That is all.

[Khajit]

I don't even know what you are trying to prove. The whole point of the discussion is to determine the most efficient role of a SMN in exp party (pure DD/buffing vs mainhealer + backup support). We are not here to decide whether a SMN should replace RDM, WHM or SCH.

I have been a lv75 RDM, WHM and SMN for at least 3 years+ and I don't see a huge differenece between SMN and WHM in exp/merit party. In good exp party where healing need is low, having a SMN is likely to benefit your party more compared to say WHM because SMN can spend extra MP to deal damage and buff party members.

SMN is the only job that can handle main healing and buff party/deal damage at the same time. I use this fact to emphasise my point that the most efficient way to play the job is to focus on healing and use spare MP to DD and buff party members. I am not saying that exp party should invite SMN over WHM or SCH. May be you should stop jumping into conclusion and read the whole post?

hexastrike/mystic boon spam. do i win?

[Coolmints]

In my opinion it is hard to justify whether a smn is a good addition to a merit party by only looking at the job itself. You obviously need to consider the party setup and most importantly the player skills in addition to their gears.

I have been main healer as WHM, SCH, and SMN the past 3-4 years for countless pickup merit parties (mamools, birds etc). I have seen many chain#100+ when ONLY the leader knows what setup works and the other players KNOW what they are doing.

Have you merited with a perfect party setup and can't break chain#50? Like people go afk and not pay attention. How about seeing 4 dd (war, drg, lolBLU, mnk) 1 brd and a smn breaking chain#100? What surprising was that fully merited blu/nin parsed (only spam piercing disseverment and MP-drinkiss) the same as that nearly full merited bb mnk (a good mnk whom I know well).

Bottom line, any job can be a good healer in merit as long as you can break chain#100+.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[Shin Volcano]

It was in response to taruking and others trying to argue summoner as a versatile class, which I still don't even buy. If someone else is going to claim it's a hybrid DD/buffer and most of the wards are super mediocre and don't even compare to the pure buffers, ie brd/cor, than it leaves smn in the limbo of mediocre at all for XP. The favors are definitely more of a buffing aspect of smn, but since we don't know the limitations on it, that still leaves smn in a terrible spot for XP uses.

I'm fond of smn, and I can definitely see the use of it in merits, but the harsh fact is there's still next to no reason to invite them before 75.

He dosn't get it at all, as much as i love smn and what it CAN do, it warrents no place in XP pts over the other more effecient, better healers, at this point, it's more of a desparation job to invites, i really hate to admit that, but that's just the way it is, he's trying his hardest to defend it with no viable reasons other then "i can cast cure, so i am an effeicent healer" that's why i just stoped trying. as soon as SCH and DNC came out SMNs already minor role was cut even shorter. It is a Good Buffer and DD, but because buffing is better from brd, cor and dd is well, that needs no explination, it's harder to find reasons that a SMN gets an invite, waiting to see how this update helps.

SMN is a difficult, frusrating road to 75 due to the above facts, it's only when you get 70+ does that road has some breathing room.

[barber2006]

I don't even know what you are trying to prove. The whole point of the discussion is to determine the most efficient role of a SMN in exp party

Most efficient role of smn in exp party is to job change or level sync in K. Tunnel. This update won't change that.