Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[montgomery]

Most efficient role of smn in exp party is to job change or level sync in K. Tunnel. This update won't change that.

Zing.

[Taruking]

He dosn't get it at all, as much as i love smn and what it CAN do, it warrents no place in XP pts over the other more effecient, better healers, at this point, it's more of a desparation job to invites, i really hate to admit that, but that's just the way it is, he's trying his hardest to defend it with no viable reasons other then "i can cast cure, so i am an effeicent healer" that's why i just stoped trying. as soon as SCH and DNC came out SMNs already minor role was cut even shorter. It is a Good Buffer and DD, but because buffing is better from brd, cor and dd is well, that needs no explination, it's harder to find reasons that a SMN gets an invite, waiting to see how this update helps.
SMN is a difficult, frusrating road to 75 due to the above facts, it's only when you get 70+ does that road has some breathing room.

I can certainly understand why you'd find the journey to lv75 SMN frustrating since you obviously do not understand how to use the job to its full potential.

Cure IV does not make a mage job less likely to run out of MP in exp party. RDM is by far the best exp main healer, what really puts RDM in its own league is its ability to refresh PLD, which allows tank to hold hate better and hence indirectly reduce the amount of curing done by RDM. Convert is obviously a very good JA but SMN can easily recover 400-600 MP every 10 mins without any HP penalty. There is very little difference between SMN, WHM and SCH healers in exp party because each of them has its unique way to cut MP cost and recover MP. Each of these 3 jobs also has its unique abilities which can potentially benefit party members.

I certainly do not imply SMN should replace WHM or SCH in exp party. My point is that in experienced hands, SMN can be an efficient main healer. The job has limited DD/buffing capacity and should not replace other specialised jobs as suggested by Orochi. A smart SMN should focus on healing party members and use spare MP to deal damage and buff party members. This is by no mean an easy task because SMN must take many factors into consideration such as avatar casting time, BP MP cost, party setup etc etc. The job is much harder to master and that's why a lot of exp parties end up inviting poor SMN who give bad name to the job.

After Nov update, SMN should be in the same league as RDM (but still behind RDM). The ability to refresh your party members is simply too good to pass up. Unless there is some hidden cost to it exp party should invite SMN over WHM and SCH in exp party that uses PLD tank.

[Shin Volcano]

I can certainly understand why you'd find the journey to lv75 SMN frustrating since you obviously do not understand how to use the job to its full potential.

Sigh, you're a retard, or you just have a serious problem getting things thru your head,
SMN has a tough time getting to 75 because of the lack of it's role in a PT, it isnt just me, jesus christ. stop going in circles with the same ol "full potential" bullshit, a SMN can only get that role at 75, SMN will never reach it's"full potential' in a fcking EXP pt, why? BECAUSE EXP PTS AREN'T FUCKING HARD. how many times do i have to shove this in your head? Full potential? been there, done that, healing thru your SJ is not part of a full potential, Get over it.

Cure IV does not make a mage job less likely to run out of MP in exp party. RDM is by far the best exp main healer, what really puts RDM in its own league is its ability to refresh PLD, which allows tank to hold hate better and hence indirectly reduce the amount of curing done by RDM. Convert is obviously a very good JA but SMN can easily recover 400-600 MP every 10 mins without any HP penalty. There is very little difference between SMN, WHM and SCH healers in exp party because each of them has its unique way to cut MP cost and recover MP. Each of these 3 jobs also has its unique abilities which can potentially benefit party members.

Once again, i will start calling you "The merry go round kid" same ol shit, diffrent smell, wtf does a RDM refreshing ANOTHER JOB have to do with your SMn main heal debate, we already know RDM is a great healer, what else is new? SMN WHM AND SCH ARE NOT FUCKING SIMILAR, THEY HAVE A HUGE CUREING POWER DIFFRENCE cure IV and V do make a big fucking diffrence, they cure for MORE are you this dumb? STOP COMPARING SMN TO WHM AND RDM AND SCH, THERE IS A BIG ONE, STOP TRYING, WHM is the supiror healer, RDM is a great healer, along with SCH, SMN is no where near either of them, the diffrence in Tier Cures IS a big diffrence. i dont think you even understand how this game works at all.

Recovering 4-600 Mp every 10 Minutes? .....yes everything will stop and wait for each elemental shipon to be up, while a RDM can convert for more then that, and still have gradual MP coming from there own refresh, oh yes, and if somone has 100 HP left, and you have no mp, they have plenty of time to watch you summon an elemental, use the JA then cast a cure 3, yes, thats very effective.

I certainly do not imply SMN should replace WHM or SCH in exp party

.

OMG really????? thats wtf you have BEEN doing.

There is very little difference between SMN, WHM and SCH healers in exp party because each of them has its unique way to cut MP cost and recover MP.

Callme crazy but i think this from your own words implies that they CAN replace, you saying there is very little diffrence, for there to be very little diffrence, means they can heal near the same damn levels, guess what, THEY CANT, Take away SMN sj and show me that full Potential of a main healing SMN, then take away a WHMs Sj and do the same. and then tell me where that "very little diffrence" comes from.

My point is that in experienced hands, SMN can be an efficient main healer. The job has limited DD/buffing capacity and should not replace other specialised jobs as suggested by Orochi. A smart SMN should focus on healing party members and use spare MP to deal damage and buff party members. This is by no mean an easy task because SMN must take many factors into consideration such as avatar casting time, BP MP cost, party setup etc etc. The job is much harder to master and that's why a lot of exp parties end up inviting poor SMN who give bad name to the job.

In an EXPs SMNS hands, they know how to properly USE there avatars there BPs the buffs, and properly time things like healing ruby in a crises, but they are ON a BP timer, the job is limited in EXP PTS a , Once again in this "merry-go-round pahse, you got it backwards, a SMART smn Buffs and DD, and uses it's spare MP to BACK UP heal, i'm sorry, but you are NOT a good smn, at all.

SMN IS THE EASIEST FUCKING JOB TO MASTER because timing BP is fucking childs play, are you sure you're on the right game? what you are trying to describe is a skilled WHM, SMN is not it. you need to realize this fact and get over it. SMN is a MAIN BUFFER AND DD, NOT A SJ CURE SPAMER. jesus, how many times do i have to make the same posts, explaining the same thing to you? my advice to you, is to remake your character, re-unlock SMN and try again. because you obviously missed some key points when leveling the job.

After Nov update, SMN should be in the same league as RDM (but still behind RDM). The ability to refresh your party members is simply too good to pass up. Unless there is some hidden cost to it exp party should invite SMN over WHM and SCH in exp party that uses PLD tank.

Oh now i KNOW you're retarded, NOW you are trying to put SMN in the same leauge as RDM? LOL yes, smn can enfeeble everything, gravity, paralyze slow, all whiting 2-4 seconds anything with ease, including all HNMs, they will also have convert and a fast cast trait. BRD can also aoe refresh thier party, and so can a Cor. i guess they are the same to?
This update will not change much, People will still invite rdm, whm, sch over a SMN, it's just now they may have more of a reason to not frown when they HAVE to get a smn.

I seriously don't know how else to explain this to you, SMN is NOT a true main healer, they wil NEVER read again NEVER compare in any way, shape or form, or even come close, to WHM's curing power, not even RDM or sch, get out of this fantasy world you are in (hahah ffxi is a game etc]

Seriously if you make any more posts regarding this same crap, i'm just not even gong to bother, it's like trying to teach math to a baby donkey, it's just not going to happen.

[Karbuncle]

Wall-o-Text

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you're posts, and maybe we're on the same side, but...

Summoner can heal fine, in some situations i'll agree they are not as efficient as WHM,SCH,RDM, but as the like, sometimes SCH/RDM/WHM Curing power is overkill and SMN can do fine, with its MP pool and BP:Wards on 45s/1min timer. Since SMN does that the potential to be a Support/DD in various level ranged depending on the mob. It works both ways, Never forget your ability to heal whilst being a DD/Support, and never forget your ability to DD/Support whilst healing.

If you're invited to main heal, then main heal, throw a Ward:BP here and there, and do what you can to improve your exp/hr, if you're invited to DD/Support, base your buffs on the party set up, Manaburn? Diabolos, Fenrir too if near New Moon, Typical DD party? Hastega, Enthunder, Stoneskin, Fenrir Buffs depending on Moon Phase... Hell even Nocto-Shield would be a good idea if you're MP can sustain it.

In all this, despite the constant BP's, Buffing, DDing, in any situation you're given, You should never neglect you're ability to heal, it is a now vital part of the SMN job in the levels of 1-74.

At 75 its an entirely different ballpark. SMN in endgame events are looked at as strong-hateless DD, rather than their previous role in exp parties. This is a given and 99% of SMN's know this when they begin leveling the job, so there's nothing to argue about a level 75 SMN's role in endgame events, its all pretty obvious.

Tl;dr :: Simply put, a SMN can do a lot, DD/Buff/Heal, and when choosing to become a SMN, you should learn how to do them all in any situation, thats what makes a SMN a SMN, the ability to adapt to a multitude of situations and come out on the top.

[Shin Volcano]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you're posts, and maybe we're on the same side, but...

Summoner can heal fine, in some situations i'll agree they are not as efficient as WHM,SCH,RDM, but as the like, sometimes SCH/RDM/WHM Curing power is overkill and SMN can do fine, with its MP pool and BP:Wards on 45s/1min timer. Since SMN does that the potential to be a Support/DD in various level ranged depending on the mob. It works both ways, Never forget your ability to heal whilst being a DD/Support, and never forget your ability to DD/Support whilst healing.

If you're invited to main heal, then main heal, throw a Ward:BP here and there, and do what you can to improve your exp/hr, if you're invited to DD/Support, base your buffs on the party set up, Manaburn? Diabolos, Fenrir too if near New Moon, Typical DD party? Hastega, Enthunder, Stoneskin, Fenrir Buffs depending on Moon Phase... Hell even Nocto-Shield would be a good idea if you're MP can sustain it.

If you're in an endgame shell, 90% of the time you'll be a heavy source of DD, depending on what party you're placed in you should adapt your buffs accordingly. in a BLM party? Pop Diabolos, Dream Shroud > Nether blast if its a Physically Resistant Mob, Release and Garuda/Lev if its not. rince and repeat as needed.

In all this, despite the constant BP's, Buffing, DDing, in any situation you're given, You should never neglect you're ability to main heal or sub heal, it is a now vital part of the SMN job, and is ignorant to ignore it.


Tl;dr :: Simply put, a SMN can do a lot, DD/Buff/Heal, and when choosing to become a SMN, you should learn how to do them all in any situation, thats what makes a SMN a SMN, the ability to adapt to a multitude of situations and come out on the top.

Yea, sorry about the wall, i'm not pleasent when i have to explain my self over and over again, i do agree they can heal, whats pissing me off is that he's comparing it "or close to in is words" the more obvious and better healers, and thus in exp pts of all things where anything with mp and /whm can do the same damn job, thats what's grinding my gears. i dont deny they can heal, but not as effectivly and he thinks.

[Karbuncle]

Yea, sorry about the wall, i'm not pleasent when i have to explain my self over and over again, i do agree they can heal, whats pissing me off is that he's comparing it {or close to in is words" the more obvious and better healers, and thus in exp pts of all thigns where anything with mp and /whm can do the same damn job, thats what's grinding my gears. i dont deny they can heal, but not as effectivly and he thinks.

I can completely agree to this. SCH,RDM will always have 1 up on a SMN, they have alot of potential and can use bigger cures without a restricting timer, They both also have MP restorative abilities on par or greater than Elemental Siphon.

so yeah, when it comes down to it, SMN can heal fine, they will get by in most situations, they have the potential, but (and i agree), there are still the jobs that pull ahead of SMN in main healing, and its undeniable. A support job can only go so far.

Summoner has 1 trump on RDM and that's the ability to buff others with Stoneskin, Phalanx, Spikes, Enspells, and etc. While SCH has the ability to do the same on a less restricting timer post-45.

its like a circle of opposing forces, each has the unique ability that seperates them, pulls them ahead of one job but has them behind another. In terms of pure healing, SMN falls behind, but it terms of flexibility SMN pulls ahead, with its ability to adapt to DD, Healing, or Buffing.

[Taruking]

Orochi you really need to stop shouting and start using your head for a minute. How many times do I have to repeat there is no significant difference between WHM, SCH and SMN in term of keeping exp chain going if you really know how to play the job?

I am not going to lie and say cure IV/V make absolute no difference in exp party. There will be time when SMN fails to save tank because Cure III is down due to recast. A good SMN knows how to avoid the situation or keep it to minimum. Those 2 spells are obviously more important in endgame battles.

What really matters in exp party is exp/hr. RDM is in its own league because it can refresh PLD tank. If you make 3 identical parties, give each of them a good SMN, WHM and SCH main healer, all 3 parties are likely to end up with similar exp/hr. The exact number is determined by party level and setup since each job has its own unique abilities which work better under different situations.

I mostly play during JP peak hours and have no issue getting party invite when I leveled SMN 3 years ago. I just took SAM to lv75 last month and it was my 13th lv75 job. I have met enough terrible SMN like you who keep saying SMN can't main heal without even trying. You are not going to learn how to be a good mainhealer if all you care about is to spam BP every 45-1mins. Perhaps you need some advice how to be a good SMN in exp party?

[Shin Volcano]

Blah blah, same shit, diffrent smell

You still don't get it, and i doubt you ever will.

RDM, WHM, SCH, are in there own world of healing/supporting,

SMN, is in there own low effecient world of it.

That's just how it is, they can heal, but no where near as effective as the above 3 jobs, are you that unresonable? i KNOW they can heal, but comparing SMN to any of these jobs is just plain dumb.

No more wall of text, if you get it, great, if not, you're far beyond help.

[Taruking]

You still don't get it, and i doubt you ever will.

Same can be said about you. At least you are arleady lv75, one fewer bad SMN to ruin the job's reputation I guess.

Let me remind you again I have RDM, WHM, SMN, PLD and NIN at lv75.

If you put WHM, SCH and SMN side by side and ask them to spam cure, the total amount of HP cured by all 3 jobs in long run are going to be similar. If you don't understand how I can give you some hints.

[Shin Volcano]

Same can be said about you. At least you are arleady lv75, one fewer bad SMN to ruin the job's reputation I guess.

Let me remind you again I have RDM, WHM, SMN, PLD and NIN at lv75.

If you put WHM, SCH and SMN side by side and ask them to spam cure, the total amount of HP cured by all 3 jobs in long run are going to be similar. If you don't understand how I can give you some hints.

I can asure you im a far better smn then you will ever be, you trying to turn a good job into a gimp whm, just because you have those jobs 75 dosnt mean anything, there are plenty of Bad players with lots of 75 jobs, i know how to acttualy use my avatars and there bps, when to time them, sorry but if im fighting khimiria, you wont find me spaming cure 3, ill be to busy Bping. while you trying to find that stona spell you think you have. oh wait, you'll be trying to merit on smn i guess. my smns is caped out on gear and merits, and it was my 1st 75, i like how you think you can judge my SMN just because you are wrong, SMN is not a hard job, if even an idiot like you can play it releying on your SJ then it's idiot proof.

I explained it to you already, i dont know what you are fighting so hard for, SMNs role will not change, its something you will have to deal with, iv done every thing in this game as smn, incudling soloing most of my shit, like jobs AF3s and NMs i wasnt meeling with my staff and cureing 3 my self, i understand you are upset SE did not make SMN the way you want, but blame the community. if you are calling me a bad SMN just because i dont spam none-stop cures ganing massive amounts of hate, then you have problems, I HAVE WHM, SCH for that, why the hell would i want to downgrade? i leveld smn back when siphon wasnt around, obviously you havnt, so alone i have more expriance then you on how hard smn has it, stfu with your petty insults about what you think a good smn is, because you obviously dont know shit about the job, ill bet you cant even use /sch effectivly.

EXP pts are only a small portion of a SMNs carrer, after 75 you wont see any merit pts, if you do, you probably shouldnt be in them,

[Yugl]

I cannot believe people are bitching about non-merit PT healing.

[Shin Volcano]

I dont know what he's trying to prove, SMN is an awsome job, but mainly during Endgame only, no one has any respect for EXP PT smns, cause it's not a permenet role, you will have a 5% chance of ever seeing a PT once you are 75, unless it's an astral burn for shits and giggles, so i really do not understand taru's argument over this crap,

The update will definalty gives smns more to play with, and maybe give them a more deserved role in a pt slot, but it still wont fix the curse they've had since they came out.

[frodnonnag]

I don't know what he's trying to prove, SMN is an awesome job, but mainly during Endgame only, no one has any respect for EXP PT smns, because it's not a permanent role, you will have a 5% chance of ever seeing a PT once you are 75, unless it's an astral burn for shits and giggles, so i really do not understand taru's argument over this crap,

The update will definitely gives smns more to play with, and maybe give them a more deserved role in a pt slot, but it still wont fix the curse they've had since they came out.

Fucking Christ Orochi, shut the fuck up until you get a spellchecker. Most of the reason you come off as a complete fucking moron is because of that. I counted five mistakes in that short post alone.

The other half is because you are wrong. At merit level, between red mage, scholar, and summoner, the best job for a merit level healer/buffer is a close tie between summoner and red mage, with the nod going to a good summoner.

Casting cures can only go so far in a merit level party, the rest is made up with the buffs or damage that job supplies. Red mage doesn't get ecliptic howl, and scholar doesn't get haste, and neither job can put out damage spikes on par with predator claws.

MP regain is also a good favor for the summoner, between 3 a tic auto refresh, elemental siphons (mine do 323 minimum), and /sch sublimation, the summoner easily paces a red mage's convert. Hell, i even went as far as to build a +40 hmp build, and that has worked wonders in both endgame and merit instances.

[Taruking]

I can asure you im a far better smn then you will ever be, you trying to turn a good job into a gimp whm, just because you have those jobs 75 dosnt mean anything, there are plenty of Bad players with lots of 75 jobs, i know how to acttualy use my avatars and there bps, when to time them, sorry but if im fighting khimiria, you wont find me spaming cure 3, ill be to busy Bping.

SMN like you who think they should be buring MP on their "awesome" BPs in exp party instead of main healing make me cry. It's like a NIN try to say "I should be dealing damage with my elemental wheel and shuriken instead of tanking with utsesemi".

You still don't get the basic concept of the job, the DD/buffing capacity of SMN in exp party is very limited compared to more specialised jobs. You are gimping yourself if you focus on spamming BPs alone.

Calling SMN a gimp WHM just showed that you don't even understand basic party dynamics. Spamming cure spell is not the only way to maintain exp chain. SMN should take up the mainhealer spot in exp party and use spare MP to enhance melee's performance and deal damage with bloodpact. By increasing the killspeed of your party you cut the amount of healing required. The same way RDM cut mp spent on healing by refreshing PLD tanks so that they can hold hate better and share the burden of healing party members.

EXP pts are only a small portion of a SMNs carrer, after 75 you wont see any merit pts, if you do, you probably shouldnt be in themp

I don't merit on SMN because I have RDM. It's the job of choice for merit purpose because it has significant advantage over WHM, SCH and SMN. It doesn't mean the party will never get past chain 10 if I switch to SMN. You really should re-examine your playstyle, it's obvious to me that you have very distorted view of SMN as a mainhealer because you don't really know how to be a good one, despite the fact that many SMNs have already said they have no issue main healing in exp party.

The game is littered with tons of bad SMNs like you who ruin the reputation of the job. It's unlikely to change after Nov update since players like you never learn how to put Diabolos's favor into good use.

[Shin Volcano]

Fucking Christ Orochi, shut the fuck up until you get a spellchecker. Most of the reason you come off as a complete fucking moron is because of that. I counted five mistakes in that short post alone.

Who the fuck cares, fuck you, stupid ass bitch, i really dont give a shit about you being a fucking grammer nazi, oh good you can fucking count spelling here, want a mother fucking cookie? no you can have a fucking middle finger pointed at you, STFU. this is BG not a damn class room,

The other half is because you are wrong. At merit level, between red mage, scholar, and summoner, the best job for a merit level healer/buffer is a close tie between summoner and red mage, with the nod going to a good summoner.

No, YOU re wrong, who the fuck merits with smn over rdm whm or even sch? find me one, that isnt a set up invovling a pld and thf probably, smn does not "tie" any of them. you're just as retarded.

Casting cures can only go so far in a merit level party, the rest is made up with the buffs or damage that job supplies. Red mage doesn't get ecliptic howl, and scholar doesn't get haste, and neither job can put out damage spikes on par with predator claws

Once again, WHO FUCKING INVITES SMN TO A MERIT PARTY, that ecliptic howl dosnt mean shit. SMNs do not get merit invites. you fail to understand, that Damage is coverd by the DDs in the merit parties, and if the DD are even worth half a shit, you won't thave to fucking PC, are you retarded?

MP regain is also a good favor for the summoner, between 3 a tic auto refresh, elemental siphons (mine do 323 minimum), and /sch sublimation, the summoner easily paces a red mage's convert. Hell, i even went as far as to build a +40 hmp build, and that has worked wonders in both endgame and merit instances.

The update isnt here yet dumb ass, WE don't know how potent it will be or even how well it will work out, and once again, i DOUBT it will change how smns are treated, you will wont get a smn in party over the other more supirior healers/supporters, they have to be a significant increase to get a slot, wait till the fucking update, easily paces? you're just as stupid as taru, how the fuck can you compare a Hp=MP swap, to a ability that needs time to charge, OMFG, YOU GOT 323 MP back, oh wait.. why the fuck are subbing /sch in a merit party? SMN will NOT be that effective, at that point you may as well call it an EXP pt.

Get off your ass and read the damn lines, no one gives a shit about how i spell, if you can't read it, TO FUCKING BAD, i love when people with no valid argument jump right to the grammer.

/angry mode off

My name starts with "Orochi" for a reason, don't get me angry with stupid shit.

[Day]

Bye.

[Day]

Notice how your post count is staying zero. My god son you are retarded.

[mercure]

I definitely need some explanation about whm or sch being WAY better than smn in a good merit PT (meaning sharing utsusemi between DDs and understanding how to use their shadows, each one of them).

Smn can cycle Hastega / Earthen Ward (to ease utsu recast, and thus less cure IIIs) / Ecliptic Howl / DD pacts (if needed)

Sch not having Haste, kinda makes utsu tanking harder.

Whm seems about the same as Smn, providing better cures but losing enhancements in the process (even more after the update, where SMN will kinda have 1 roll to apply on top of everything else, but it will require a different cycle to use that roll efficiently I agree) ... Smn has a way to get back mp though, something Whm doesn't have but less time casting = more rest, so it should be a tie.


You seriously shouldn't ditch smns that much in merit, it's very viable as long as the melees aren't retarded and share hate.

Oh and btw : Ecliptic Howl can provide a good acc bonus, it's not something to spit on, since it's about 5acc less than Blade Madrigal on Full Moon for example (25 acc vs 30 acc if max skill brd) ... not to mention its cost is low, making it easy to maintain through a cycle.

[Shin Volcano]

Notice how your post count is staying zero. My god son you are retarded.

Right right, Post counts very much matter for....uhh, what do they mater for again?

yes, and i'm the retarded one. because i dont get + post counts, because as we all know, we each get a bag of cookies for the most post counts,

and yes, i will very much wait for SMNS to replace whm, and rdm in merit pts. i can't wait, sec, gonna start seeking on smn after update, because my PT has plenty of time to let me summon lots of avatars to thru up buffs, sure hope no one is is dying, what the hell was i thinking? i mean since they can support/cure on the same level. right?

[Kaslo]

Right right, Post counts very much matter for....uhh, what do they mater for again?

yes, and i'm the retarded one. because i dont get + post counts, because as we all know, we each get a bag of cookies for the most post counts,

and yes, i will very much wait for SMNS to replace whm, and rdm in merit pts. i can't wait, sec, gonna start seeking on smn after update, because my PT has plenty of time to let me summon lots of avatars to thru up buffs, sure hope no one is is dying, what the hell was i thinking? i mean since they can support/cure on the same level. right?

He wasn't talking to you. There was a guy with 0 posts posting in the thread with just jibberish like "fdsjkfdakjn" earlier.