Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Gergall]

LS mate just mentioned that they should include a "Random" option under Ready that uses 0 charges.

Then BST could spam Random (still need 100 TP though) and occasionally pay for a specific move that you actually want. This would make for an actual upgrade to BST. Still not enough, but an improvement.

[Kaibelf]

Summery: apprently im a bad smn because i don't spam hate building cures, and he is clearly the supirior SMN because he can cast a cure spell and press a job ability to a blood pact.

Also

There is "very little to no diffrence" between SMN, WHM, and RDM, when it comes to supporting according to him

next few pages: me trying to explain to him that that is wrong.
him trying to defend what s not possible. arguments and bad words were ensured.

Taru: "you are a poo smn because you don't agree with me."

Me: "oh ok"

and that's about it.


But if you wish. yes, i think Aoe refresh will be a nice edition, can't wait to see how potent the DBL attack and MAB are. maybe i can really get to enjoy using smn again.

Responses:

1. Apparently there can't be a disagreement on what works for people without it devolving into an embarrassing mudslinging and name-calling fiasco.

2. In the event of no present WHM or RDM in a typical party, a SMN can suffice. Is it perfectly optimal in every way? No. Does it get more done than standing around in Whitegate for 2 hours looking for one to materialize? Yes.

3. Taru did make a few valid points about the possibilities of various styles of play with the SMN job. It's probably safe to day you're not the only veteran evoker on this board (I've put in 5 years myself in the job, so I MAY also have some authority on the topic). That being said, you don't know the ONLY right answer.

4. Moral: Who gives a shit about such a retarded argument in the first place? No one's holding your controller, so what's the point of hijacking a thread about the benefits of the update into an overwrought mess which has very little to do with the OP? If you play your way, hurray, and others play their ways. It's called variety and personalization. Otherwise, what's the point of having so many abilities?

In closing, no one has the perfect SMN, no matter how much they jerk themselves off about what they THINK they know. /end

[Spider-Dan]

Nin can still hit things with a katana and WS,

but cannot tank anything worth tanking without a SJ

DRG can still hit things with a pole arm and WS

but can't solo for sh*t without a SJ

RDM can still enfeeble, stun locking is on very rare occassions and for special fights, also, they don't have stun natively.

which makes stunlocking kind of complicated without a SJ

SMM cannot cast cure without a SJ.

SJ-less SMN can heal a hell of a lot better than SJ-less NIN can tank, SJ-less DRG can solo, or SJ-less RDM can stunlock. Not that that matters, because:

the diffrence i was trying to explain is: All those jobs are still capable of doing there job without a SJ, but much less effective.

...which would be an outstanding point in a game without subjobs.

Arguing over who can perform their role more effectively without a subjob is like arguing who can perform their role more effectively naked. It's a pointless waste of time that proves nothing whatsoever.

[Spider-Dan]

LS mate just mentioned that they should include a "Random" option under Ready that uses 0 charges.

Then BST could spam Random (still need 100 TP though) and occasionally pay for a specific move that you actually want. This would make for an actual upgrade to BST. Still not enough, but an improvement.

To be perfectly consistent, "Random" would need to use 1 charge, not 0.

[Gergall]

To be perfectly consistent, "Random" would need to use 1 charge, not 0.

Yeah I know, but 0 would be a nice additional buff

Too bad this is just a dream. It would be really nice.

[Shin Volcano]

but cannot tank anything worth tanking without a SJ

Was never meant too be a tank in the 1st place, PLD sure can, again, not as effective, but
still has tools to tank. NiN can still throw shurikins, and cast ninjistu, which is what they were inteded to be doing.

but can't solo for sh*t without a SJ

Was never meant to solo, BST sure can, without a SJ, there is that less effective thing again. DRG was meant to be a DD job, which they can do with or without a SJ, solo is something advanced players have grown used to.

which makes stunlocking kind of complicated without a SJ

im not sure what your point on this is, RDM does not have stun without drk sub.

SJ-less SMN can heal a hell of a lot better than SJ-less NIN can tank, SJ-less DRG can solo, or SJ-less RDM can stunlock. Not that that matters, because:

of course not, a smn has to wait for there BP timer to be ready to heal, good luck between that 1 minute.

...which would be an outstanding point in a game without subjobs.

Arguing over who can perform their role more effectively without a subjob is like arguing who can perform their role more effectively naked. It's a pointless waste of time that proves nothing whatsoever.

Right, that's why it was a sarcastic example, example means to give you an idea of a givin situation, that isn't nessassarly true or even possible, so your whole thing on quoting that was unessassary in it self. good job, surely even you can tell the diffrence.

More spins on the obvious wheel?

[Spider-Dan]

[NIN] Was never meant too be a tank in the 1st place

[...]

[DRG] Was never meant to solo

Are you seriously trying to argue what jobs were "intended" to do? Unless you plan on sending this thread through a wormhole to 2004, your latest observation (NIN was not "meant" to tank) is even more pointless than your previous one (SMN cannot mainheal without SJ).

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why is this idiot not banned?

[drwaffles]

Why is this idiot not banned?

Because he doesn't take wyrms for walkies.

Oh, you meant...

[Taruking]

The conclusion I have made from Orochi's post is there are far more players who think they know how to handle main healing than they will like to admit. It also explains why I have blacklisted so many BP spam happy SMN and melee RDM when I leveled my last 6 jobs.

Players who know how to maximise rest time and make good use of curaga/regen spells can handle mainhealing on any mage job which has a decent size MP pool and access to Cure III, including BLU/WHM and BLM/WHM. A lot of NA mage I have met do not understand this basic concept, they just spam cure III/IV the moment tank or melee take damage. Curaga is the most MP efficient cure spell if you can land it on multiple targets, the trick is to keep melee alive until more than 2-3 players need cure and to time the spell properly so that you don't pull hate and get yourself killed.

I guess the main issue is not whether SMN can mainheal, it's whether ppl actually understand the basic concept of mainhealing and take advantage of job specific abilities to improve their performance as a mainhealer. Here are some common mistakes in exp party:

WHM - Flash is the most underused WHM spell. I have seen no more than 3 NA WHM who use Flash to help NIN recast Utsusemi:Ichi or PLD to land big cure spell. I have never met any NA WHM who cast Flash pre-emptively to counter pecking fury when colibri's HP is about to drop below 25%

RDM/WHM - use DS + Cure IV after convert instead of DS + curaga II when party members also need heavy cure; refuse to debuff colibri, or silence Imps/dispel blazespike

SMN/WHM - too many, I don't even know where to start

[jimbobsonofgod]

Man so much fucking Poop in these last few pages of this thread that makes even baby Jesus cry.

Taruking:
Curaga isn't the most MP efficient cure. That'd be cura, with a runner up of SCH Cure* with accession /penury/rapture. (or the other way around)

frodnonnag
People who merit DD/NIN make me cry too stop being raving pussies and Sam/war x3 brd cor rdm and honestly nothings gonna top RDM/WHM for merit curing and buffing- 5 MP a tic in gear + sanction + Convert at 8 mins + ballads makes it almost to be damn near limitless MP.

Orochi Lede> I'm to busy BP'n to Cure.
With the best gear you got 2 BP every 46 seconds after that you've got your dick in your hand til your timers are down so might as well throw out a cure/na spell while you are at it.
But on the other side of that retardation, I do agree if you are meriting with smn, you are probably doing it wrong(provided you aren't in a flow party).

At best smn is a situational job that 9/10 times you'd be better off having that smn be a more useful job. Don't feel to bad though, cause it could be worse, You could be BST PUP or DNC

And that's all I could find at 7 in the morning. I am sure there is way more, either way all the people bitching all bring valid points to the table about smn. Along with crappy points.

All i have to add is this

WHERE IS MY FUCKING PONY.

That is all.

[frodnonnag]

Man so much fucking Poop in these last few pages of this thread that makes even baby Jesus cry.

Taruking:
Curaga isn't the most MP efficient cure. That'd be cura, with a runner up of SCH Cure* with accession /penury/rapture. (or the other way around)

frodnonnag
People who merit DD/NIN make me cry too stop being raving pussies and Sam/war x3 brd cor rdm and honestly nothings gonna top RDM/WHM for merit curing and buffing- 5 MP a tic in gear + sanction + Convert at 8 mins + ballads makes it almost to be damn near limitless MP.

Orochi Lede> I'm to busy BP'n to Cure.
With the best gear you got 2 BP every 46 seconds after that you've got your dick in your hand til your timers are down so might as well throw out a cure/na spell while you are at it.
But on the other side of that retardation, I do agree if you are meriting with smn, you are probably doing it wrong(provided you aren't in a flow party).

At best smn is a situational job that 9/10 times you'd be better off having that smn be a more useful job. Don't feel to bad though, cause it could be worse, You could be BST PUP or DNC

And that's all I could find at 7 in the morning. I am sure there is way more, either way all the people bitching all bring valid points to the table about smn. Along with crappy points.

All i have to add is this

WHERE IS MY FUCKING PONY.

That is all.

Cura isn't the most efficient cure, ignoring spellcast time, There's healing ruby for a combined 11 mp.

My best colibri merit party wasn't /nin. /nin is only better for weaker DD, rng and 1handers. /sam is better for good gaxe war, drk, and drg. My single best merit party was me and 5 sam/war, right after the big sam patch, but before the toned it down some.

As for mp, I can easily break 1k mp back every 10 minutes, and that's only counting auto refresh and siphon. i have a +40 hmp set, so my first resting tic is about 75, counting cookie and clearmind.

Bp timer cap is -15, new gear finally capped it. The strength of summoner in a tp burn merit pt isn't the 45 seconds of curing, it's the 5 seconds of buffs and rage pacts. whm, sch, and rdm can't give out ecliptic howl, predator claws or the upcoming avatar aoes. Simple concept, kill stuff slow, take more damage. Get better buffs, kill stuff faster, take less damage, do less cures.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Stuff

While I do enjoy your enthusiasm for summoner, I do have to say that if smn was the better healer for merit parties, then smn would be the status quo not rdm which the masses have deemed most efficient. And its not ignorance, I'm sure everything has been tried under the sun to produce the most efficient way to merit, and smn isn't on the list outside of smn burn.

And really you shouldn't count up and coming boosts as a factor its about what as worked in the past maybe these new abilities will put smn over the top, maybe they'll be a laughable joke by square to shut up the smn community. Nobody will know until the day of the update.

Oh and healing ruby isnt a fucking cure spell. its a god damn blood pact that happens to cure.
If we were talking about abilities that cure, then martyr and all the waltz chakra would be the most efficient since they dont require any MP. But since it was specificially said that Curaga was the most efficient cure "spell" then BP are null and void.

[Mirage]

Simple question:

Can you get 25k/hour or more with an average smn (that knows his shit) as main healer in a "normal" merit party? yes/no

This is a honest question, I'm not trying to be a smartass.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Simple question:

Can you get 25k/hour or more with an average smn (that knows his shit) as main healer in a "normal" merit party? yes/no

This is a honest question, I'm not trying to be a smartass.

I find a majority of "normal" merit parties have problems breaking 25k/hour let alone with a smn healer. "Normal" merit parties usually consists of shout groups and more times then not you get a gimp or two and it just fucks everything up.
Better then DD the better the party. healers just need to keep people above ground long enough to kill the mob before the mob kills the DD.

And to add i'm not dis'n smn cause i hate the job or think its just a shitty job. Its one of my favorite jobs to play but I would never think that just because I love a job so much that it can beat out any other job in any other situation.

I do not believe square intended the job to be a bitch healing job for people to just spam cure III all day and throw out a hastega when needed. They are for drawn out fights where damage output:hate ratio is factor and survivability in AOE range is the other.
For quick burst fights, and "main healing situations" smn is on the low end of the spectrum.

And thats why SMNS QQ, not because people think smns isnt a good job, its just that they just don't fit into what has been the status quo for so many events in 11 these days, which is kill it fast before it kills you.

[Mirage]

Well I haven't been to too many merit parties, but I've gotten 25kish in all of them, and they've been pickups. Of course, it could just be that expwatch is poor at averaging exp gain.

[frodnonnag]

While I do enjoy your enthusiasm for summoner, I do have to say that if smn was the better healer for merit parties, then smn would be the status quo not rdm which the masses have deemed most efficient. And its not ignorance, I'm sure everything has been tried under the sun to produce the most efficient way to merit, and smn isn't on the list outside of smn burn.

And really you shouldn't count up and coming boosts as a factor its about what as worked in the past maybe these new abilities will put smn over the top, maybe they'll be a laughable joke by square to shut up the smn community. Nobody will know until the day of the update.

the issue is that the majority of summoners, the average players, don't bother to learn about things such as skill modifying buff duration. summoner has had an edge over redmage since that update, it just hasn't been utilized by the common majority. More and more players have summoner leveled, but it's still regarded as a waste to merit skill and i can probably count on one hand the number of ls mates i have that even bother to have a +skill set.

I only mentioned the new update info once, and said it will only further push us ahead of whm, rdm and sch. who knows what exactly it will do, but for a player like me, it most likely means free garuda and fenrir for meriting parties.

[Taruking]

Taruking:
Curaga isn't the most MP efficient cure. That'd be cura, with a runner up of SCH Cure* with accession /penury/rapture. (or the other way around)

My point is you don't need fancy cura or SCH JA to be a good main healer. -aga line of cure spell is the most MP efficient healing spell available to all mage jobs we have discussed so far on this thread. Any mage with WHM SJ and decent size MP pool (i.e. BLU/WHM, PLD/WHM, BLM/WHM), who know how to maximise rest time and understand why SE add -aga/regen spell to this game should be able to keep chain going in pre-merit party. Job specific abilities are there to enhance your role as a mainhealer and different job has its own unique way to cut MP cost or recover extra MP.

I do not believe square intended the job to be a bitch healing job for people to just spam cure III all day and throw out a hastega when needed. They are for drawn out fights where damage output:hate ratio is factor and survivability in AOE range is the other.

Role specialisation is the key, not job specialisation. I highly doubt it's SE original intention to turn RDM into an endgame tank job. WHM is probably the only mage job specifically designed to be a pure healer, it doesn't mean ppl shouldn't invite RDM to main cure even though healing is not RDM's main strength.

It's common for the same job to play different role under different circumstances. RDM is the best main healer in exp party but the job mainly plays a support/debuff role in endgame battles. Hateless damage is useful for drawn out fight but you don't need that in exp party. The most efficient role of SMN in exp party is to focus on healing party members and use spare MP to buff/deal damage.

Of course things will be different after Nov update. SMN and RDM will become interchangeable in exp party (based on update description). This game sorely needs another mage job with the ability to refresh party member and mainheal at the same time. Unfortunately we are bound to meet tons of idiotic SMNs who refuse to use Diabolos's Favor in pre-merit party because they believe the job is not meant to be a refresher despite the fact that DF's refresh effect is more likely to have greater impact on exp/hr than all other BPs put together.

[frodnonnag]

Of course things will be different after Nov update. SMN and RDM will become interchangeable in exp party (based on update description). This game sorely needs another mage job with the ability to refresh party member and mainheal at the same time. Unfortunately we are bound to meet tons of idiotic SMNs who refuse to use Diabolos's Favor in pre-merit party because they believe the job is not meant to be a refresher despite the fact that DF's refresh effect is more likely to have greater impact on exp/hr than all other BPs put together.

i don't see the use in diabolos's favor in exp or merits. your dd generally don't need refresh to hit things, and it won't really be giving you mp considering perp costs.

[Morn]

LS mate just mentioned that they should include a "Random" option under Ready that uses 0 charges.

Then BST could spam Random (still need 100 TP though) and occasionally pay for a specific move that you actually want. This would make for an actual upgrade to BST. Still not enough, but an improvement.

A start to improve BST, and make this new command tolerable would be to eliminate the TP requirement altogether. Every 2 minutes accumulate a charge and use it like any other JA. Your pet uses the move regardless of its TP. Want a better move? Wait longer. Being tied down to two separate timers for TP move which are almost always lack luster is just dumb, and its not like a 150 damage frog kick every two minutes is going to break BST.