Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Oliveman]

Instead of adding to the pool of sometimes-mean-spirited debate, and partially because I don't know as much as I would like about SMN, I just want to say that while it is a worthwhile endeavor to try and redefine and solidify the use of SMN in parties and in other scenarios, keep in mind that the only thing the update does is expand the things a SMN can do. And versatility is nothing to sneeze at. Even if you think SMN is evolving in the "wrong" direction, a direction already filled by other jobs, consider if your best friend was a SMN main, and this had limited them as to what missions and battles you could do together. This update would make your friend's job more useful in situations where SMN was weak before, thus allowing you to do more things together. You don't have to look at this update in a negative, or even skeptical light. Personally, I've always felt that avatars should be out more, anyway. Now they have a reason to be.

[jimbobsonofgod]

And here to distract everyone from the painful Jibber Jabber of this thread is the musical stylings of Mr.Conway Twitty.

Hello Darlin'
nice to see you
its been a long time
you're just as lovely
as you used to be

how's your new love
are you happy
hope your doin fine
just to know it
means so much to me

what's that Darlin'
how am I doin'
guess I'm doing alright
except I cant sleep
and I cry all night 'til dawn

what I'm trying to say
is I love you and I miss you
and Im so sorry that I did you wrong

look up Darlin'
let me kiss you
just for old time sake
let me hold you
in my arms one more time

thank you Darlin'
may God bless you
and may each step you take
bring you closer
to the things you seem to find

goodbye Darlin'
gotta go now
gotta try to find a way
to lose these memories
of a love so warm and true
and if you should ever find it
in your heart to forgive me
come back Darlin'
Ill be waiting for you

http://www.morethings.com/music/conw...4hee_haw10.jpg

[Meian]

So if SMN doesn't replace RDM as healer/support or as a major DD like SAM, then they are generally worthless in the eyes of many of those posting currently in XP and especially merit parties. And if they were, then there'd be a hate fest of those saying SMN shouldn't be replacing etc etc something similar to the SCH discussion after their big buff.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Anyone who truly believes that a summoner with the appropriate amount of summoning skill can't make a perfectly reasonable substitute healer in an effective merit party really overestimates the complexity of being a healer during merits..

[Taruking]

You're dodging the question. Have you ever gotten more than 10k/hr playing the SMN "mainhealer"?

I can't really answer this question because I don't use 3rd party program to calculate exp/hr. All I can say is when I am on SMN, I have no issue keeping exp chain going in both exp/merit party (with players who are not retarded) and the result is similar when I am on WHM main. If I can get chain 50+ in merit party playing SMN "mainhealer" it's safe to assume I have gotten more than 10k/hr?

Check the list of common mistakes SMN healers tend to make I have posted earlier. May be it will help you figure out why your SMN tend to struggle to keep up with WHM and SCH.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if SMN doesn't replace RDM as healer/support or as a major DD like SAM, then they are generally worthless in the eyes of many of those posting currently in XP and especially merit parties. And if they were, then there'd be a hate fest of those saying SMN shouldn't be replacing etc etc something similar to the SCH discussion after their big buff.

Not true. Diabolos's favor will put SMN in the same league as RDM after Nov update since they will become the only 2 mage jobs which are capable of mainhealing and refreshing party members (i.e. PLD) at the same time. SMN is of course still behind RDM but due to severe shortage of RDM across all servers, the job is likely to become a popular exp job from lv55-70+.

[Siniroth]

For those saying you won't get refresh because the avatar will be in melee range... do people ever fight anything anymore besides imps with annoying AoEs that dictate you need to be so far away you can't get the buff too?

[Destinye]

For those saying you won't get refresh because the avatar will be in melee range... do people ever fight anything anymore besides imps with annoying AoEs that dictate you need to be so far away you can't get the buff too?

People fight anything but pink birds in ToAU?

[ronin sparthos]

I think he meant pickup groups(retarded acronym i only know it existed cause i saw it used once). That being said if you seriously are in parties so fucking stupid that they cant understand the concept of subbing nin when asked to to the point it gives you such a weird boner rage for plds you need to sto and solo some FOV or something. That and I know that if i ever transferred servers i'd hate to find a server full of people that retarded.

...or maybe I like an EXP party that doesn't depend on /nin or seigan for everything? There are other DD beyond WAR and SAM and generally these DD work better when there is a designated tank in the party to hold hate and avoid sponging in an EXP party.

If your tank isn't completely stupid, you can also have them dealing damage while your healer avoids the massive headache that comes with dealing with the one DD in a party who has hate from 90% to 0% because they are getting their shit pushed in while the other DD are too busy worrying about their own numbers (or lack thereof) to actually you know... voke or get it off them.

Most DD do not like to tank and that is a matter of fact. You ask a couple of WAR/SAM (the only two DD that can really "tank" until subjobs shine later) to share voke duties and guess what? Nine times out of ten you'll have one slack off or completely ignore the duty given to them meaning guess what? Hate is all over the place and you take more damage than you would have if you had a PLD in party with 3 DD and 2 support.

Like I said, a tankless party is something for meripo levels or against VT with here it comes.... people you can trust or LS mates. It can work at various levels but for the most part you are going to want a PLD in a pickup and this means that the refresh favor will be useful for SMN + PLD parties when you cant find a RDM. (By proxy it gives fresh to any DRK or BLU but that isn't as big i suppose.)

It's that the other DD are fucking gimp compared to you or don't know how to use their WS.

...and a good party leader prepares for the worst when creating a standard pick-up party which means guess what? You typically get a tank. If you trust the people in your party and/or VT chaining then you can go ahead and go for a 4 DD 2 support party. Im talking about a typical party yet you are speaking as if every party is born to produce max exp/hr.

By your reasoning we could just have rdm+whm as the mages in the party instead to make the party better when we all know by now that 2 mages together means one could afk and you'd never notice.

Where did I say RDM + WHM is the most effective backline?

My point is that when you create a party, you use the resources given to you and create the best party with what is given. Those magic "perfect" parties are few and far between and sometimes you might have to....party with people you don't know. If you are partying in cad mire @56 and there are only DRGs LFP then you better believe I want a PLD in that party because odds are the members of that party will tap the mage out on mana faster than it can be restored through fresh/ballad meaning downtime.

If you party with a static then all of my points are moot but you really speak as if you've never been in a pickup group.

[Acturus]

And now, a dramatic synopsis:

Person 1: Summoner with it's new ability will find new uses in places where it used to find difficulties.

Person 2: Summoner will not be able to enter X scenario though.

Person 1: Summoner WILL be able to enter X scenario when Y and Z apply.

Person 2: Maybe, but X scenario with Y and Z applying under the guise of A or B will not make Summoner more useful.

Person 3: Hey, BST got an ability. That's cool.

Person 1: But guise A or B in this one camp works just find for Summoner.

Person 2: But not when X scenario is missing Y.

Person 1: I know that, I said 'X scenario when Y -AND- Z apply.' God, why aren't you listening.

Person 2: But no one uses Y AND Z anymore.

Person 1: What about [particular level range].

Person 2: [particular level range] isn't important.

Person 3: Guys, BST too.

And... scene!

[Shin Volcano]

That's probably because the rest of your party were good. If given the choice I am sure your party members will not hesitate to replace your SMN with another BRD or COR.

If you can't mainheal any exp party on SMN you should quit playing the job full stop.

Wow, you just don't fucking give up do you. You just can't stand somone NOT agreeing with your failed logic of how SMN is played. now people who can't main heal a party as smn shoud quit playing the job? have you EVER played in an exp pt that wasnt fighting T mobs? because you're grossly overestimating SMN, i tell you what, when you can do a "merit party" as smn getting 25-30k an hour main healing a smn, come talk to me. go on, get to it.

because fromt he looks of it, you're the last person that should be playing SMN.

[Tsuko_Asura]

i tell you what, when you can do a "merit party" as smn getting 25-30k an hour main healing a smn, come talk to me. go on, get to it.

You do realize that the key to being an effective merit healer is keeping people hasted and alive, correct? Hastega is more effective at this than the actual spell Haste, and while Siphon isn't quite Convert and Refresh, the combination of it and a 3MP/tick perma-refresh are more than enough to sustain a party. Beyond cures and hastes, everything else is just handy, yet completely unnecessary, fluff.

[Shin Volcano]

You do realize that the key to being an effective merit healer is keeping people hasted and alive, correct? Hastega is more effective at this than the actual spell Haste, and while Siphon isn't quite Convert and Refresh, the combination of it and a 3MP/tick perma-refresh are more than enough to sustain a party. Beyond cures and hastes, everything else is just handy, yet completely unnecessary, fluff.

Oh did you just figure that out? SMN has a difficult time with the healing part, if you didn't know, smn can't spam cures and keep buffs up without draining massive amounts of MP over a short period of time. that 3 MP a tick isn't going to save you when you are using 90+ of it each minute. the basic way of a suriving party are really simple, the goal in a merit party is to increase exp per hour to lessen the amount of time you spend actually meriting, in your terms even brd and cor is unessassary, it's just how effective you want to get, and smn is not on the top of that list, Hastega is effective, only if the SMN hasn't been lazy with SMN magic skill, it also requires 129 mp iirc which is indeed less then a full cycle of hasts,. altho this is a great spell that gives smn an advantage, sadly it still does not put them on top of exp per hour in a merit party however, will see how it plays after update.

The problem with SMN is there is to much room and risk of downtime because of the MP consumption to really be modertly effective, RDM and whm/sch don't have that issue as bad as smn does.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Well, speaking as a person who was in 30k+/H parties regularly(always with friends, always hand-picked, before anyone says some stupid shit), more often than not, I'd finish a haste cycle, toss some Curaga II, and go read BG. If my half-ass attention span(and lack of Light Arts or Composure) can handle excellent parties, any summoner who gives a damn should be able to as well.

[Shin Volcano]

Well, speaking as a person who was in 30k+/H parties regularly(always with friends, always hand-picked, before anyone says some stupid shit), more often than not, I'd finish a haste cycle, toss some Curaga II, and go read BG. If my half-ass attention span(and lack of Light Arts or Composure) can handle excellent parties, any summoner who gives a damn should be able to as well.

Well let me ask you, where they all subbing nin? did they have relics? are just extreamly well geared to the point the mobs do not last longer then 3-5 seconds. if there are people you know and trust, i have no doubts, but we don't all get that luxery. so it's just based on the most standerd and basic merit parties. hell i never get invited as MNK to merits, but with LS members i come as it and have a blast. and still pull out the same exp per hour as say that war/sam only pts people seem to be obseesed with, it does depends on who you are meriting with.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Never /NIN(I don't let people), about 50% of the time with relics - it just depended who was on. But you're contradicting yourself now, though. Sure, it may not have worked as well if the players were grabbed from Whitegate and didn't perform excellently.. But then I'm not going to be in a 30k+/H party, now am I? If you're challenging these people to show you a balls to the wall party made of people that weren't amazing as a means to prove that summoner can't compete, you're setting them up for failure. You could have three white mages outside of your party as dedicated healers, but that's not going to make a lackluster party anything special.

[Taruking]

Wow, you just don't fucking give up do you. You just can't stand somone NOT agreeing with your failed logic of how SMN is played. now people who can't main heal a party as smn shoud quit playing the job? have you EVER played in an exp pt that wasnt fighting T mobs? because you're grossly overestimating SMN, i tell you what, when you can do a "merit party" as smn getting 25-30k an hour main healing a smn, come talk to me. go on, get to it.

because fromt he looks of it, you're the last person that should be playing SMN.

You are more retarded than I could ever imagine. Just stop for 1 min and read what I have posted about common mistakes made by SMN healer in exp party.

Ironically merit parties capable of getting 25-30k/exp are probably least likely to need a RDM healer since mobs die before they can inflict heavy damage to warrant massive healing power. If melee and puller suck not even the best RDM can save the day.

[Keyln]

I can't really answer this question because I don't use 3rd party program to calculate exp/hr. All I can say is when I am on SMN, I have no issue keeping exp chain going in both exp/merit party (with players who are not retarded) and the result is similar when I am on WHM main. If I can get chain 50+ in merit party playing SMN "mainhealer" it's safe to assume I have gotten more than 10k/hr?

Don't need a 3rd party program to "calculate" xp/hr. Just eyeball the number of limit/experience points you earned, and divide it by the amount of time in the party, and there is a rough estimate on xp/hr. In my case, I started with less than 1000 XP (I was seeking to rebuild my buffer on my SMN), and by the end of the party, I had gotten about 11,000 XP plus 4 merits (I switched to limit mode when I hit 10,000) in the space of 2 hours. That's roughly 25k/hr. And I did it not by being the "mainhealer", the RDM had that covered, but by keeping my MP up while cycling various buffs. I found that's the real efficient way to play SMN. DD is too slow, as enemies tend to die too quick, and healing, while possible, falls away in efficiency when a real healing job, like RDM, comes into play.

Check the list of common mistakes SMN healers tend to make I have posted earlier. May be it will help you figure out why your SMN tend to struggle to keep up with WHM and SCH.

The question here is that why do you automatically think that I'm doing something wrong just because I disagree with you, and I'm able to produce results by going counter of what you are suggesting?

[Kairos]

This whole discussion is still ridiculous. If a summoner can't keep up mp, either they are doing some things wrong:

-Bad sense of timing
-Gimp summoning skill
-no resting mp gear
-not subbing sch, especially at birds where it makes sense
-using unnecessary pacts

OR, the party is doing some things wrong:

-Gimp or just average DD's (mediocrity is the #1 killer of merit party potential)
-DD's not bothering to make use of damage mitigation
-Bard/cor not keeping buffs up (happens very often in pick ups)


The worst thing i see on summoners is bad gear choices for their situations and no smn skill builds. It's not fair that people tolerate summoners being gimp, but any other job will get called out on it. If someone's gimping it up, they're gimp no matter what job they're playing.

There's no use talking about a summoner in this situation that doesn't have a smn skill build to max hastega because that's subpar anyway. You can't get extraordinary exp with sub-par members and that goes for the DD as well. The burden on proving value shouldn't be on the summoner alone since no matter how good the summoner is, average to gimpy DD's have a greater effect on the party. Most of the meriting speed is on the DD's and a puller if you use one (drg parties often don't use a puller which i prefer). The healer in most merit parties seems to be pretty irrelevant weather its a whm rdm or smn. As long as you keep people hasted and healed there's no issues, and usually the complaint with mages in merit parties comprised of good members is that there's not enough to do!

Most of the time on summoner I find myself twiddling my thumbs until there's more use for my mp. I'm sitting on excess mp most of the time. Between elemental siphon and sublimation that's about 560mp/5minutes not counting the effect of refresh. Not hard at all to keep that mp stable through 2 hastega pacts and another ward of your choice in addition to cures when needed. Earthen ward is good for preventing the need to cure so much, and that in itself is cheaper than a cure3 for the 3 or 4 DD's in the party.

I think the reasons that smn is no longer an invited job to merits:

-The enemies have changed (switch to weaker enemies where the party requires mp endurance which smn didn't have until siphon and /sch)

-People have simply gotten into the habit of not inviting smn (simply its not thought of as a job to invite to merits even though a good smn is perfectly capable. I did only 20-25k/hour parties on smn until the invites stopped altogether early this year)

-Summoners accepted as mediocre. More than any other job i find, for some reason people think its ok to play summoner under-skilled, under-merited, and under-geared. I'm the only one that ever says anything to smns that don't have skill, resting, or bloodpacting sets or are using the wrong pacts at the wrong time for the wrong thing. Summoners should get called out and avoided when they play gimp, just like every other job. The main reasons I don't invite summoners to anything when i party is because i don't trust any of them i don't know to play as well as me, and i don't want to be disappointed.

[Taruking]

In my case, I started with less than 1000 XP (I was seeking to rebuild my buffer on my SMN), and by the end of the party, I had gotten about 11,000 XP plus 4 merits (I switched to limit mode when I hit 10,000) in the space of 2 hours. That's roughly 25k/hr. And I did it not by being the "mainhealer", the RDM had that covered, but by keeping my MP up while cycling various buffs. I found that's the real efficient way to play SMN. DD is too slow, as enemies tend to die too quick, and healing, while possible, falls away in efficiency when a real healing job, like RDM, comes into play.

Exp/hr in merit party is mainly limited by damage output of your melee not by the amount of mp of your healer. The faster your DD defeat mob the less healing is required. Your party is unlikely to hit 25k/hr if you replace all DD jobs with gimped AH melee. Replacing your SMN with a BRD/COR or even another melee on the other hand is going to boost their performance and increase exp/hr. The reason why you were getting 25k/hr is because the rest of your party were good, not because you were playing DD/enhancing SMN and left the healing task to RDM.

If you want to compare SMN and RDM healer you should have replaced the RDM in your merit party with another SMN healer. Chances are you won't even see any difference in exp/hr. Hell you even mention mob die too quick in your party, what makes you think SMN can't keep up with RDM?

The question here is that why do you automatically think that I'm doing something wrong just because I disagree with you, and I'm able to produce results by going counter of what you are suggesting?

In case you haven't noticed you just happened to get invited to a good merit party and you were basically leeching exp off other good players. Any SMN think they can't keep up with WHM and SCH healer should re-examine their playstyle. It's like gimped RDMs keep saying it's impossible for RDM to solo Fenrir just because they don't know how to do it.

[Keyln]

Exp/hr in merit party is mainly limited by damage output of your melee not by the amount of mp of your healer. The faster your DD defeat mob the less healing is required.

Depends on what the party is fighting. Fighting pink birds this is true, as lolbri don't hit that hard, and don't have dangerous TP moves (the worst is Pecking Flurry), and generally die very fast. Mamool Ja, on the other hand, tend to hit harder and have more dangerous TP moves (although they do give out more XP/kill). Making a blanket statement like that doesn't make it true for every situation.

Your party is unlikely to hit 25k/hr if you replace all DD jobs with gimped AH melee. Replacing your SMN with a BRD/COR or even another melee on the other hand is going to boost their performance and increase exp/hr. The reason why you were getting 25k/hr is because the rest of your party were good, not because you were playing DD/enhancing SMN and left the healing task to RDM.

So, rather than just accept that I've brought up a situation where the SMN doesn't need to heal, you just make excuses and bring up reasons why it doesn't work as well. Like I said, so says the guy who simply wasn't there.

If you want to compare SMN and RDM healer you should have replaced the RDM in your merit party with another SMN healer. Chances are you won't even see any difference in exp/hr. Hell you even mention mob die too quick in your party, what makes you think SMN can't keep up with RDM?

Or, how about you try it my way? You know, have a RDM in the party while you're a SMN, and then play DD/buffer? Or just straight buffer?

In case you haven't noticed you just happened to get invited to a good merit party and you were basically leeching exp off other good players. Any SMN think they can't keep up with WHM and SCH healer should re-examine their playstyle. It's like gimped RDMs keep saying it's impossible for RDM to solo Fenrir just because they don't know how to do it.

It seems to me that no matter what evidence I bring, no matter what course of logic I bring up, and no matter what argument I make, you'll never agree with me. Then let's just agree to disagree here. You'll never convince me otherwise, and it seems to me that I'll never convince you. So, we'll just agree to disagree, and accept the fact that there are multiple effective ways to play the same job.