Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Taruking]

Depends on what the party is fighting. Fighting pink birds this is true, as lolbri don't hit that hard, and don't have dangerous TP moves (the worst is Pecking Flurry), and generally die very fast. Mamool Ja, on the other hand, tend to hit harder and have more dangerous TP moves (although they do give out more XP/kill). Making a blanket statement like that doesn't make it true for every situation.

Some1 just recently posted a screenshot of chain 200+ with relic SAM, MNK, WHM and BRD at MJM camp. The best form of defense is a good offense.

So, rather than just accept that I've brought up a situation where the SMN doesn't need to heal, you just make excuses and bring up reasons why it doesn't work as well. Like I said, so says the guy who simply wasn't there.

You are so pathetic. The "situation" you just mention proves nothing. Just because your party is getting 25k/hr doesn't mean playing DD/buffing SMN is more efficient than mainhealing SMN. How do you know by replacing RDM with a COR and making your SMN the mainhealer is not going to improve exp/hr further? To show that DD/buffing SMN works better than mainhealing SMN you need to replace RDM with a COR and mainheal on your SMN to see if there is any significant difference in exp/hr:

Party setup A - DD, DD, DD, BRD, SMN , RDM
Party setup B - DD, DD, DD, BRD, COR, SMN (keep DD and BRD, replace RDM with a COR)

I can assure you, if setup A nets your party 25k/hr, setup B is going to do even better, provided you are not a retarded SMN who burned all MP on BPs.

[willriker]

You are so pathetic. The "situation" you just mention proves nothing. Just because your party is getting 25k/hr doesn't mean playing DD/buffing SMN is more efficient than mainhealing SMN. How do you know by replacing RDM with a COR and making your SMN the mainhealer is not going to improve exp/hr further? To show that DD/buffing SMN works better than mainhealing SMN you need to replace RDM with a COR and mainheal on your SMN to see if there is any significant difference in exp/hr:

Party setup A - DD, DD, DD, BRD, SMN , RDM
Party setup B - DD, DD, DD, BRD, COR, SMN (keep DD and BRD, replace RDM with a COR)

I can assure you, if setup A nets your party 25k/hr, setup B is going to do even better, provided you are not a retarded SMN who burned all MP on BPs.

Thank you for stating this so clearly. I really do not see how anyone can argue with this. Its really so obvious that... Ray Charles can see it.

[Beave]

Party setup A - DD, DD, DD, BRD, SMN , RDM
Party setup B - DD, DD, DD, BRD, COR, SMN (keep DD and BRD, replace RDM with a COR)

I can assure you, if setup A nets your party 25k/hr, setup B is going to do even better, provided you are not a retarded SMN who burned all MP on BPs.

^ is retarded. Of course Party B is going to do better.

BRD+COR > all.

Can't compare a party when you're trading a RDM for COR.

Edit: SMN has no place in merits now, and also after the update. Quote me on this when you realize SMN update did almost nothing.

[Valkrish]

Summoners will get what they want, but how useful it will be will be told on the field of battle.

[laverna]

^ is retarded. Of course Party B is going to do better.

BRD+COR > all.

Can't compare a party when you're trading a RDM for COR.

Edit: SMN has no place in merits now, and also after the update. Quote me on this when you realize SMN update did almost nothing.

When the Update comes out a SMN is going to have to make a merit party and do some testing, see what they find with exp/hr.

[Taruking]

^ is retarded. Of course Party B is going to do better.

BRD+COR > all.

Can't compare a party when you're trading a RDM for COR.

Edit: SMN has no place in merits now, and also after the update. Quote me on this when you realize SMN update did almost nothing.

You need to read previous posts before you jump into conclusion and come out with some stupid comment that make yourself look like an idiot.

We are not here to discuss whether SMN should get invited to merit party over RDM. The whole point of discussion is to determine whether SMNs are more efficient playing mainhealer or DD/buffing role when they do get invited to exp party. As you have rightly pointed out, BRD's songs and COR's rolls work much better than SMN's enhancing BPs and there is no reason to replace BRD/COR with a SMN. On the other hand SMN can easily handle mainhealing in a competent party. The better your merit party are the less likely they will need a RDM healer.

I do agree the new update is not going to help SMN much in merit party. However, it does turn SMN into a popular refresher/healer for lv55-70+ exp party with a PLD tank. How can people not see the potential of Diabolos's Favor in endgame events? A tank party consisting of PLD, PLD, BRD, RDM, WHM, SMN will probably never run out of MP and there is enough healing power to keep your tank alive. Plus Diabolos actually has some useful BPs.

[Ninjiz]

This argument is retarded.

If the end result is the same, what does the party makeup matter??
There is pretty much a cap in exp in any given camp, and unless SE decides to flood merits camps with more mobs, you simply will not get more then what people are currently getting (not counting rings). At that point whats more efficent is moot. The result is the same.

[Jeryhn]

How can people not see the potential of Diabolos's Favor in endgame events? A tank party consisting of PLD, PLD, BRD, RDM, WHM, SMN will probably never run out of MP and there is enough healing power to keep your tank alive. Plus Diabolos actually has some useful BPs.

This is going to be pretty much a given, and one very particular item is going to soar up in popularity for Summoners: the Summoner's Horn. There are a ton of endgame areas that feature constant double darkness weather: all Dynamis areas, Apollyon, Einherjar. SMN has a prime position to overtake the role of an RDM in Tank and BLM parties as a refresher, though it probably won't replace a BRD or a COR in a melee party for any of these events.

Add in the fact that Diabolos is a good avatar both defensively and offensively through his Bloodpacts... Noctoshield, Dream Shroud for both the MAB and the MDB, the unresistable Nether Blast, and Nightmare (which is actually a pretty highly reliable sleep effect that can be overwritten by Sleepga2) in case things ever get hairy. With a SCH subjob, I doubt a SMN will even run close to being out of MP in an endgame event when providing fulltime Refresh and normal Cure/-na duties through Sublimation and Parsimony Aspirs.

Endgame, Summoners are easily going to be able to get a lot more use through Diabolos alone. I don't really think this can be argued. What seems to be the problem for most of the people here is that SMN won't necessarily be any better in merits... which is fine because leveling a second job specifically for merits isn't hard, and a SMN can get easy EXP campaigning anyway (hiya Healing Ruby 2).

[Taruking]

This argument is retarded.

If the end result is the same, what does the party makeup matter??
There is pretty much a cap in exp in any given camp, and unless SE decides to flood merits camps with more mobs, you simply will not get more then what people are currently getting (not counting rings). At that point whats more efficent is moot. The result is the same.

Seriously ppl need to think before they call an argument "retarded". Merit party should never replace a COR with a SMN because Corsair's roll is the only way to raise the exp cap in an otherwise capped merit camp. It's the main reason why most good merit parties prefer COR + BRD over double BRD support.

If you decide to invite SMN to your exp/merit party always get them to mainheal (unless you can't find a COR, BRD or another well geared DD). Any SMN who claim they are more efficient playing DD/buffing role do not deserve a party invite.

[Ninjiz]

http://home.earthlink.net/~tonespotter/retard_prize.jpg

[Keyln]

Some1 just recently posted a screenshot of chain 200+ with relic SAM, MNK, WHM and BRD at MJM camp. The best form of defense is a good offense.

Oooh, nice, but really, what does this have to do that? Seriously, you're making my case here.

You are so pathetic. The "situation" you just mention proves nothing. Just because your party is getting 25k/hr doesn't mean playing DD/buffing SMN is more efficient than mainhealing SMN.

Nice Ad hominem attack there. I think I'm crying on the inside.

Simply put, efficiency produces results. Especially in this game, being more efficient allows for higher chains, faster kills, and more xp/hr. I made the claim that a DD/buffer SMN is efficient, and I backed it up by presenting the 25k/hr Mamool Ja party. I'll admit that the party was awesome, but that doesn't mean that I did nothing but sit on my tail all day. My best parties, to my memory, are never the parties where the SMN is the main healer. They're just, in my experience, not that efficient.

How do you know by replacing RDM with a COR and making your SMN the mainhealer is not going to improve exp/hr further? To show that DD/buffing SMN works better than mainhealing SMN you need to replace RDM with a COR and mainheal on your SMN to see if there is any significant difference in exp/hr:

Party setup A - DD, DD, DD, BRD, SMN , RDM
Party setup B - DD, DD, DD, BRD, COR, SMN (keep DD and BRD, replace RDM with a COR)

I can assure you, if setup A nets your party 25k/hr, setup B is going to do even better, provided you are not a retarded SMN who burned all MP on BPs.

Ok, go at it then. If you want to make the claim that the best, most efficient use of SMN is to mainheal, then let's see some results. As I asked earlier in this thread, back your claim up. Produce results. Go ahead and try Party setup B, and see if it is really that efficient.

Efficiency produces Results. So, go at it. You make the claim, so back it up. Show the mainhealing SMN can be efficient.

[Taruking]

Ok, go at it then. If you want to make the claim that the best, most efficient use of SMN is to mainheal, then let's see some results. As I asked earlier in this thread, back your claim up. Produce results. Go ahead and try Party setup B, and see if it is really that efficient.

Efficiency produces Results. So, go at it. You make the claim, so back it up. Show the mainhealing SMN can be efficient.

Seriously can you be more pathetic?

I know not everyone has studied statistics but all you need is common sense. Your little "example" proves nothing. Your party getting 25k/hr has nothing to do with you being a DD/buffing SMN. Let's say you get invited to a crappy merit party next time, with the exact same party setup but terrible DD/puller and end up with 5k/hr exp. Can you still call yourself "efficient"?

Using exp/hr to judge the efficiency of SMN only works if you compare both DD/buffing and mainhealing SMN under the same controlled environment. Technically speaking your claim has no statistical power, you just happened to be in a good merit party. I don't even need to test party setup B to prove my point, I only use the example to help you understand it better. In fact, I can't just build a merit party with setup B and use the result to prove my point because even if my exp rate is higher than yours it still doesn't prove mainhealing SMN works better. It could simply because my party has better DD or puller.

Stop embarrassing yourself, I am running out of way to demonstrate your stupidity.

My best parties, to my memory, are never the parties where the SMN is the main healer. They're just, in my experience, not that efficient

You are making the same mistake again. We are not here to determine whether SMN is a better healer than RDM. It's a well established fact that in most exp party a competent RDM will do the job better than a SMN. It doesn't mean switching to DD/buffing SMN is going to produce better results. You are taking up a spot which could have been filled by a COR, a BRD or another well geared DD. It will compromise your party to a greater degree than simply replacing RDM mainhealer with SMN.