Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Ryko]

Sorry but RDM is not even close to being the top "Mp efficient" mage in this game. SCH and WHM/SCH win. Convert doesn't make RDM MP efficient, being able to do everything RDM does and not needing it does (WHM/SCH of course).

Cool story bro, at what point does a WHM/SCH handle refreshing a PLD while having equivalent debuffing ability as a red mage? I havent played in a while so I could use the information.

[Alkar]

You lose Erase if you sub SCH and it's not worth it more often than not because most DDs are dumb and will get hit by Elegy every now and then or you need barspells to save their asses. I don't see lots of PLDs in merits, do you? WHM/SCH is more MP efficient, maybe you should check what that means.
Then again I can already see that you're going to assume things from this like I'm saying that WHM/SCH is way better than RDM. RDM is a great healer, but it's not the most MP efficient.

[Pesan]

Sorry but RDM is not even close to being the top "Mp efficient" mage in this game. SCH and WHM/SCH win. Convert doesn't make RDM MP efficient, being able to do everything RDM does and not needing it does (WHM/SCH of course).

Not following your logic here. Almost feels like the potato/potato statement. By your statement that convert isn't mp efficient the same then can also be said for Sublimation. If by Penury it's more efficient, then u have a somewhat valid point.

[Thiefami]

supposed to encourage summoners to leave their avatars out to melee, but the damage output with this ability up will undoubtedly be cut by a decent amount even though the cost of keeping it out will be cheaper.

If they were trying to give Smns a reason to keep their avatars out, they did it in a piss-poor fashion.

okay.. really. I've read the update notes over four times already and nowhere in there does it say melee damage output is reduced, the only thing that is reduced is perpetuation cost. Is there something on the official website (which i can't access since I'm at work) that I'm not seeing or are you people talking out of your ass?

[Shin Volcano]

Nice changes although I have a feeling Bst got screwed.

Only slight dissapointment is that Garuda + Fenrir suck, since they are best for solo, and the fact that nobody gives acc bonus. Other then that it's fine.

TBH Fenrir should have gave the ACC bonus, i don't see how "magic evasion" would really help at all. isn't that bascialy shell?or i it more like a natrual resist trait.

[Ryko]

You lose Erase if you sub SCH and it's not worth it more often than not because most DDs are dumb and will get hit by Elegy every now and then or you need barspells to save their asses. I don't see lots of PLDs in merits, do you?

This entire topic has been discussing the trip UP to 75, not the merits you gain after you get there. RDM is still by far the most MP efficient job at 75 because it gives mp to the other support jobs on a steady basis as well as pulling a shit ton of MP out of nowhere every 10 minutes. If it's not the PLD it's going to be someone else. Again, gain over time in XI has always shit on one time instant gain.

[Taruking]

Non-sequitur. I hate to be the bearer of the obvious, but Summoner isnt Red Mage. We were discussing SMN and WHM, RDM shits on both so hard when it comes to MP efficiency that they don't need high tier regens to be top tier EXP healers.

And again, every job is capable if everyone is on their game. A job's ability to excel unfortunately works under the obvious unavoidable fact that if you're bargain binning for parties, that isn't likely.

Of course SMN is not RDM, SMN will close come to RDM being the next best main healer/support job in pre merit exp party with a PLD tank after next update. They just have to work harder and use their commonsense to juggle between Diabolos's Favor/Elemental siphon and resting for MP. There are many ways to achieve MP efficiency, regen spells and Cure IV are only small part of them, in fact Cure V heals less for the amount of MP spent iirc. More often than not PLD's MP pool is the biggest limiting factor in exp party. 4mp/tic is just too good to pass up and will more than likely to conpensate for SMN's lact of higher tier cure spells. This is esp true if there are spell casting job such as DRK and BLU in your party.

[Silenka]

okay.. really. I've read the update notes over four times already and nowhere in there does it say melee damage output is reduced, the only thing that is reduced is perpetuation cost. Is there something on the official website (which i can't access since I'm at work) that I'm not seeing or are you people talking out of your ass?

If I told you I read between the lines based on the German/French/Japanese translations of the update notes and came up with it on my own or I told you I know the info from somewhere else would you really believe either one without any proof to back it up?

All you need to use is common sense here though regardless of what is known or not known. The ability is a 5 minute recast, 2 hour duration ability. This means you can click it on and off at will every 5 minutes. Why would you want to do that if you want a max party buff (by keeping your avatar out a long time you get a better one)? Why would you want to click it off at all if there's no downside to having it up? Obviously, there is some reward for clicking it off and putting it back on (much like any other 'stance' in the game such as fan dance or afflatus abilities). The other translations of the update notes clearly state (in their respective languages) that the avatar is weakened in order to buff the party. It doesn't really matter how much/what type of weakness it will have, it's taking an already shitty thing (avatar damage output) and making it shittier, which doesn't help smn in the least.

[Xanthe]

TBH Fenrir should have gave the ACC bonus, i don't see how "magic evasion" would really help at all. isn't that bascialy shell?or i it more like a natrual resist trait.

For people who still don't get it, magic evasion is Bar*ra. It raises your resistance to all magic damage/debuffs regardless of element i.e. the frequency you will see a 1/2, 1/4, 1/18, or 1/16 (or 0 in the case of debuffs) resist for both direct damage and enfeebling magic. It doesn't reduce the maximum damage/duration you can take.

[Ryko]

Of course SMN is not RDM

That's where your point ended. SMN's complaint of being a bargain bin replacement healer who dont get to do some ridiculous SMNesque bullshit doesn't change. Theyre still the low tier equivalent to a much better, obviously top tier job.

SMN will close come to RDM being the next best main healer/support job in pre merit exp party with a PLD tank after next update.

This is like being the best special olympics basketball shooter as long as you're on a team with someone in a wheelchair, what good is it?

[Alkar]

Refresh doesn't make you more MP efficient, it's an extra tool the job has. RDM can be MP efficient from 55 to 64 because you don't get access to Erase anyway but after that you'll need either that or Barspells to do your job properly. WHM on the other hand can sub SCH all the time. While it cannot Refresh your precious PLD you'll most likely have a BRD or a COR in the party handling the Refresh (COR requires smart DDs and PLD so let's assume they are). Merits or not, RDM is not MP efficient like SCH or WHM/SCH are if they can't use that subjob for different reasons.
If your BRD can't handle casting Ballad on the PLD on the way up to 75 then he should probably change jobs.

[Shin Volcano]

This entire topic has been discussing the trip UP to 75, not the merits you gain after you get there. RDM is still by far the most MP efficient job at 75 because it gives mp to the other support jobs on a steady basis as well as pulling a shit ton of MP out of nowhere every 10 minutes. If it's not the PLD it's going to be someone else. Again, gain over time in XI has always shit on one time instant gain.

That's being a good support job, not MP effiencet them selfs...unless you are just standing there refreshing only i guess so.

[Ryko]

That's being a good support job, not MP effiencet them selfs...unless you are just standing there refreshing only i guess so.

RDM's MP efficiency as a healer/debuffer comes from the fact that they are a superb support job in a situation where WHM's god tier V cure isn't going to be necessary. I'm not seeing how MP efficiency in a team-related exercise has ever been limited to the MP efficiency of a person on their own. Let's face it, WHM aint doing it and if SMN is doing it, well smn will have to do it because if theyre sitting up the melee's asses every fight to help them kill things faster with their half a cor buff that'd be retarded. Either way RDM's efficiency shits all over SMN and WHM ain't functioning on that level either. It's cool, the jobs are still viable (hence my stating that WHM was the top of high tier), theyre just not top tier.

[prats]

SE is stupid more time speak new avatar and is put never,now stupid adjust in smn, i no interest buffs in pt,i want new avatar and very good damage,for SE smn is job buffer,i more hate,i wait more time for new avatar,and never view,THANKS SE.

[Spira]

Avatar's Favor (Lv.55 Recast Time: 5 minutes Duration: 2 hours)
Channels the avatar's power towards a beneficial status effect for party members within range. Reduces perpetuation cost while active.

using some degree of logic of finite resources... when you channel your power into something else, the original function that uses this power will suffer..

this is where it was stated in the English version. It just wasn't worded technically enough for people to realise that it is the negative part of this stance effect..

...the stance isnt actually that bad as well. i suppose normal DoT will suffer, but you'd be able to build TP up over longer periods of time.. and unleash it with a merit BP (which u can always click off before using)

We'd also need to test what this power reduction is.. the JP notes call it 'chikara' which in its most technical sense is strength/attack, not magical str/atk.. which might mean magic BPs are still usable under this stance without detriment. We don't know for sure yet.

[thatwasnifty]

SE is stupid more time speak new avatar and is put never,now stupid adjust in smn, i no interest buffs in pt,i want new avatar and very good damage,for SE smn is job buffer,i more hate,i wait more time for new avatar,and never view,THANKS SE.

I'm glad someone finally put it so succinctly.

[Silenka]

SE is stupid more time speak new avatar and is put never,now stupid adjust in smn, i no interest buffs in pt,i want new avatar and very good damage,for SE smn is job buffer,i more hate,i wait more time for new avatar,and never view,THANKS SE.

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons...jpg?1247387782

[Pesan]

4mp/tic is just too good to pass up and will more than likely to conpensate for SMN's lact of higher tier cure spells.

Too bad it won't be 4mp/tick if the wording from SE's site is exact.

"The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll."

Cor's lucky # on this is 5, which is only 3mp/tick. 11 is not considered the role's "lucky".

[dejet]

if its rdm vs whm with the same spells they are equal whm has bigger mp pool ya

so if in a pt all you had was cure 1-4 or cure 1-5 whm would win, taking away their free MP spell and 100% return on MP is just wtf? why the hell you think rdm is taken in tp burns over whm? because they are kings of keeping their MP up with the fast pace, can whm do it? duh they can but rdm is 1st pick int his case because of how the pt works.

[dejet]

Too bad it won't be 4mp/tick if the wording from SE's site is exact.

"The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll."

Cor's lucky # on this is 5, which is only 3mp/tick. 11 is not considered the role's "lucky".

with a smn in the pt lucky hit 4mp/tic