Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Isiolia]

BST update is nigh useless. Doesn't address the real problems the job has, and needlessly gimps jug pet TP possibilities.

[requim]

The fact that the summoner change is a job ability alone is a giant warning flag that this is not a lonely, simple buff.

If it were a complete upgrade with no draw backs, I would have hoped that SE would have just made it a job trait. Looking at the existing job ability buffs you have stances or drawbacks. Composure and Velocity shot vs Sollace/Misery and Hasso/Seigan. This might just be the first of two abilities and there might be a sneaky avatar offensive boost waiting to be announced.

Then again this is SE, so this could just be a boost with no drawbacks and you would always use, but SE just hates summoner and wants it dispellable.

For BST, SE also said "adjustments and additions have been scheduled that will greatly enhance the effectiveness of pets called forth via the "Call Beast" ability" so I'm hoping that this will boost the power of the jug pet. So frog kick might no longer be so shitty, which would make me mind the 2 minute charges less. At least we can avoid some of the completely useless tp attacks that sucked up ~2 minutes anyways. And who knows, SE might be nice and tie in the Sic recast timer to the charge up time on Ready or maybe a week after the update charge times will go down to a minute.

At the very least, I do not consider having control to choose amongst the weakest tp attacks (at the same frequency of what sic is at) to in any way greatly enhance my jug pet in the least, so we have to be missing something.

[Alkar]

Being able to Convert every 10 mins does not make you more MP efficient. Being able to make your MP pool last longer does.

[Taruking]

That's where your point ended. SMN's complaint of being a bargain bin replacement healer who dont get to do some ridiculous SMNesque bullshit doesn't change. Theyre still the low tier equivalent to a much better, obviously top tier job.

This is like being the best special olympics basketball shooter as long as you're on a team with someone in a wheelchair, what good is it?

When was the last time you try to make an exp party to level a non RDM, non BRD job? The 3 jobs highest in demand are PLD, RDM and BRD (or COR) and very rarely you get to see all 3 jobs looking for party at the same time. The more refresh a PLD gets the better and RDM is the only healer + support mage which can handle the job. After next update, party leader can simply invite a SMN if there is no RDM lfp. Since there is a shortage of RDM on most servers SMN are more than likely to become a popular party job.

[Shin Volcano]

RDM's MP efficiency as a healer/debuffer comes from the fact that they are a superb support job in a situation where WHM's god tier V cure isn't going to be necessary. I'm not seeing how MP efficiency in a team-related exercise has ever been limited to the MP efficiency of a person on their own. Let's face it, WHM aint doing it and if SMN is doing it, well smn will have to do it because if theyre sitting up the melee's asses every fight to help them kill things faster with their half a cor buff that'd be retarded. Either way RDM's efficiency shits all over SMN and WHM ain't functioning on that level either. It's cool, the jobs are still viable (hence my stating that WHM was the top of high tier), theyre just not top tier.

RDM is a suprerb debuffer and enhancer...i don't know where you got the idea that RDM is more efficent then whm, not even close, whms higher tier Cures as well as being able to cure MORE amounts due to there access to better gear will always put them on top, rdm can debuff and enhance better, not heal, no rdm is not the most efficent, i dont know where you getting this shit, even in merit pts, iv healed far better and more EFFECTIVE as whm/sch then rdm could ever do, most of the time i don't even really need a rdm in PT tokeep up healing, ussualy brd or cor is enough due to sublimation as /sch.

Cure IV is a large hate builder and the only way for rdm to keep up with heavy damage situiations is to spam Cure IV which is very bad in most cases, Cure V may not be always needed but it's also fixed hate amount,

[Silenka]

Being able to Convert every 10 mins does not make you more MP efficient. Being able to make your MP pool last longer does.

The only limitation to convert is the RDM's own HP, which won't be a problem to any smart RDM. How you can count it out of a RDM's natural mp efficiency equation is completely beyond me.

[Destinye]

BST update is nigh useless. Doesn't address the real problems the job has, and needlessly gimps jug pet TP possibilities.

How does it gimp TP possibilities when it was already a roll of the dice to begin with? You'd think BSTs would be happy being able to...you know, choose the TP move.

Clearly they're going to observe it and determine a more appropriate time down the line, or like they did when SCH was seen as a gimped RDM, adjust it very quickly.

[Pesan]

with a smn in the pt lucky hit 4mp/tic

But it hasn't been stated if the same "If X is in pty, a bigger effect is gained" will be granted just like with the roll, just that it can reach the effect of a lucky roll

[Ryko]

Being able to Convert every 10 mins does not make you more MP efficient. Being able to make your MP pool last longer does.

This is where I point out that getting a free MP pool out of thin air means that theyre always going to make their MP pool last longer.

RDM is a suprerb debuffer and enhancer...i don't know where you got the idea that RDM is more efficent then whm, not even close, whms higher tier Cures as well as being able to cure MORE amounts due to there access to better gear will always put them on top

In the situations where the difference between 4 and 5 is necessary.

See: Not EXP, which is why I specified off the bat I was speaking of RDM as an EXP healer. It's obviously not a top tier the second you get into big hitters.

It's like you people have never leveled in your life.

[dejet]

Being able to Convert every 10 mins does not make you more MP efficient. Being able to make your MP pool last longer does.

how do you not count 2x MP as being MP efficient? every 9min with merits. but forget merits 120 mp every 3min, 500-900 mp extra with convert if need be. so that is a total of 770 extra MP if you only have 500hp for convert. RDM is all about being MP efficient. I dotn get how you dont think extra MP RDM in a way has cure 1-4 with the MP of a smn haste and can help other mages. I dont get your logic, it is just not there.

SMN for years has bitched about exping, this can help them. smn sucks for end game healing onyl whm and sch have much room for that. whm is king of end game healing but as said we are not talking about end game healing we are talking about merits and lvling up, once 41 comes rdm is king nothing you can do about it unless you plan to fight spiders again?

41+= birds almost always, key things to bird pts?
haste
having mp
healing

see the center one is where convert and refresh come in. odds are you are only going to be refreshing yourself so thats a free 90 mp. then add onto that convert.

[Silenka]

The fact that the summoner change is a job ability alone is a giant warning flag that this is not a lonely, simple buff.

If it were a complete upgrade with no draw backs, I would have hoped that SE would have just made it a job trait. Looking at the existing job ability buffs you have stances or drawbacks. Composure and Velocity shot vs Sollace/Misery and Hasso/Seigan. This might just be the first of two abilities and there might be a sneaky avatar offensive boost waiting to be announced.

Exactly. Except for the last part. SMN has gotten its one update for the next year or so, it'll likely be quite a while before it gets another one.

[Thiefami]

If I told you I read between the lines based on the German/French/Japanese translations of the update notes and came up with it on my own or I told you I know the info from somewhere else would you really believe either one without any proof to back it up?

All you need to use is common sense here though regardless of what is known or not known. The ability is a 5 minute recast, 2 hour duration ability. This means you can click it on and off at will every 5 minutes. Why would you want to do that if you want a max party buff (by keeping your avatar out a long time you get a better one)? Why would you want to click it off at all if there's no downside to having it up? Obviously, there is some reward for clicking it off and putting it back on (much like any other 'stance' in the game such as fan dance or afflatus abilities). The other translations of the update notes clearly state (in their respective languages) that the avatar is weakened in order to buff the party. It doesn't really matter how much/what type of weakness it will have, it's taking an already shitty thing (avatar damage output) and making it shittier, which doesn't help smn in the least.

thanks for the clarification......though common, I didn't read there were discrepancies in the translations or parts were omitted from the english update notes.

[Shin Volcano]

I used EXP as more of an example, since that is the minimum place rdm is used more often then not, in almost all endgame situations whm still proves better, tbh a RDM should be focusing on support and not healing, giving a rdm to much to do will often depetle thier MP pool fast, EXAMPLE all Nyzul runs where ppl think its a good idea to put 5 dd+rdm aways fail horribly because rdm runs dry, yes, whm will also run dry with no other support in nyzul, but rdm depelted far faster, the minute a flayer, or chariot poped. where as if rdm and whm where there the rdm focused on hasting dd and refreshing whm (if they choose that over subi as /sch) and back uped healed rather then trying tomain cure.

[dejet]

who knows maybe the avatar being out and released will have a memory for the next time you call it out so long as you dont turn the effect off. ton of ways se can make this good lets just wait and see^^(lulz right that will happen)

[dejet]

I used EXP as more of an example, since that is the minimum place rdm is used more often then not, in almost all endgame situations whm still proves better, tbh a RDM should be focusing on support and not healing, giving a rdm to much to do will often depetle thier MP pool fast, EXAMPLE all Nyzul runs where ppl think its a good idea to put 5 dd+rdm aways fail horribly because rdm runs dry, yes, whm will also run dry with no other support in nyzul, but rdm depelted far faster, the minute a flayer, or chariot poped. where as if rdm and whm where there the rdm focused on hasting dd and refreshing whm (if they choose that over subi as /sch) and back uped healed rather then trying tomain cure.

Bard+ rdm... I mean really unless you have 2-3 apco drks in that mix whats the point bard is a must if you ask me in it

[Ryko]

in almost all endgame situations whm still proves better

Obviously

EXAMPLE all Nyzul runs where ppl think its a good idea to put 5 dd+rdm aways fail horribly because rdm runs dry, yes, whm will also run dry with no other support in nyzul, but rdm depelted far faster

Doomed situations are terrible examples, dont use them.

[Silenka]

thanks for the clarification......though common, I didn't read there were discrepancies in the translations or parts were omitted from the english update notes.

It's not only common, it's actually pretty terrible since a lot of important information often gets lost in translation from Japanese to the other languages. I'm not sure if the English translators like to be vague on purpose or if they're so busy thinking up flowery medieval-sounding words and making lame alliterations that half the original information is lost. It annoys me quite a bit, though, as I feel they could choose their words more carefully and express more of the important stuff through that word choice. Anyway, it's not like everyone won't know come update day, so I guess it's not really that important, but as an aspiring translator myself, the changing or loss of information in the translations irks me.

[Shin Volcano]

OK rather then this turn into a rdm/whm debate.

This IS what SE was trying to do, they are trying to give smns an incetive to KEEP avatars out, my orginal thought was it was going to somewhat belike Surgestorm where avatar out increased pt stats, ifirit gives STR+etc, but they did it a diffrent way, Diabolos will be the main pet of choice imo, example is to stick a cor and smn in a BLM pt, since they do stack, this has huge potetnional if what im thinking for 11 from a lucky cor roll and 11 from diabolos staying out long enough will add up...same with MAB from shiva and wizards roll.

Ifirit dbl attack +cor war's roll+ say crimsom howl etc. you get the drift.

[dejet]

OK rather then this turn into a rdm/whm debate.

This IS what SE was trying to do, they are trying to give smns an incetive to KEEP avatars out, my orginal thought was it was going to somewhat belike Surgestorm where avatar out increased pt stats, ifirit gives STR+etc, but they did it a diffrent way, Diabolos will be the main pet of choice imo, example is to stick a cor and smn in a BLM pt, since they do stack, this has huge potetnional if what im thinking fo 11 from a lucky cor roll and 11 from diabolo staying out long enough will add up...same with MAB from shiva and wizards roll.

If the - prep is good and does not gimp his 100% 400 flat dmg then we can be looking at bad ass dmg.

if you have a cor + smn and it turn sout to be something like 3+3 6mp a tick and other - prep gear gives you a good amount of MP back with him out. and seeing as neather blast is less MP then the 70 BPs it could turn out to work just fine i showed the math before so long as the gimp to dmg is not to much(if one at all) it will be good.

[Silenka]

EXAMPLE all Nyzul runs where ppl think its a good idea to put 5 dd+rdm aways fail horribly because rdm runs dry, yes, whm will also run dry with no other support in nyzul

Hmm I did 3 (successful) runs of 5man nyzul recently with me as WHM and the other 4 as DD (most /war or /sam) and I never came close to running out of mp. I imagine a rdm would have even less of a problem in the same situation (at least, the RDMs I know).

Playing a job that is naturally mp-efficient does not necessarily mean said player will know how to manage their mp. If all you've run across are terrible rdms who don't know how to use what they have then I guess that's where you could get the running dry conclusion.