What's Better?

[requim]

What Haroun said, and that CHR is pretty low in general. I'm curious about your gear now, actually.

My guess is his gear focuses heavily on skill.
Singing and wind cap at 225, so he has 19 singing skill and 27 wind, which assuming no merits is probably where the majority of his gear is going
earth|terra/bug|earth grip/horn+1
AF2/wind/musical/singing
osode/AF+1/nereid/omega
Jester+1/6chr/AF1+1/oracles

28 wind, 18 singing, ~30chr+~70base assuming no merits. So his chr would be pretty low, but he would also have a ton of skill acc to compensate.

Actually, it's incredibly easy to cap accuracy in a WS setup on PUP (while using Sushi of course). Fuck accuracy in both slots and go Rajas/STR ring.

To clarify a pup w/248 skill needs around 74 acc with sushi, MKD had is 25, wep will be min. 5, ani+1 is 2, virt belt is 12, enk gloves are 7, body will be 10-16, back is 2.5 so in pretty much optimal gear for those slots that covers 63.5-69.5 of that 74, leaving legs, rings, and earrings, which is pretty much usu, rajas, str/dex, brutal, and merman's.

[Byrthnoth]

So, came back to the game recently and I'm basically looking at econo-builds for everything because I have no money. I've thought about a few options for a reasonable melee merit build, and concluded that Sushi + Polearm WAR is probably going to be my best choice because it relies less heavily on expensive Acc gear. Here's what I came up with:

Main: Engetsuto
Sub: Pole Strap
Ammo: Fire Bomblet
Head: Walahra Turban
Neck: PCA, Love torque, or (hopefully not) PCC
Ear1: Fowling Earring
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body: Askar Korazin
Hands: Dusk Gloves
Ring1: Blood Ring
Ring2: Rajas Ring
Back: Forager's Mantle
Waist: Swift belt
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Aurum Sabatons

Food: Crab Sushi
Merits: 8x Polearm, 5x Berserk, 5x DA

27 STP, +34 Acc, +23 DEX (68 base), 266 Skill, 24% Double Attack rate
361 Acc pre-Sushi*1.13 = 407 Acc post-Sushi

Anyone see a way to make it better and either cheaper or not dramatically more expensive? Assuming I camp and get PCA, I'm looking at ~1.5mil for all the buyables I'd need for this build, which really isn't bad.

I'm looking for something other than this list of improvements:
Package(Rose Strap, Blitz Ring, Dusk Ledelsens +1, Haubergeon +1), Dusk Gloves +1, Speed belt, Love Torque.

[Kyte]

I'm not a warrior, but wouldn't a rune chopper build be about the same price, but better?

[Shinryuu]

Dude you already have aurum shoes and byakko's haidate.

RC/Pole/_/Core
Turban/PCA/Brutal/Fowling
Haub/Fourth/Rajas/Blood
Amemet+1/Swift/Haidate/Aurum

That's what, 500k?

Keep in mind you'll outparse all pickups and most relics.

[Callisto]

Not enough AP for a Perdu Voulge? And do you already have the Polearm merits? Pretty sure you'd do just as well to put them into GAxe if not and just use that, and a GAxe build is more applicable in general.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, I guess I could:
Engetsuto for Rune Chopper
Walahra Turban for Askar Zuchetto
PCC/A or Love Torque for Fortitude Torque
Dusk Gloves for Askar Manopolas
Askar Korazin for ACP-Haub (Free!)
Forager's Mantle for an Acc+6/STR+2 Beak Mantle (already have)

Would save me ~500k, but would require Refresh.

For a DD stat comparison, it's:
19% Haste, 24% DA, 25% Piercing bonus, D85, 480 Delay, Penta Thrust
vs.
26% Haste, 22% DA, Attack+77 (including Mithkabobs), D88, 504 Delay, a minor crit rate boost, Raging Rush

Assuming standard March x2, Haste:
18.4 seconds to 100TP - Engetsuto (D85)
16.8 seconds to 100TP - Rune Chopper (D88 )
Obviously with things like Hasso or Haste Samba, RC would win harder. Polearm could potentially get another 5% Haste though through HQ gear, which would let it catch up almost completely. (Dusk Hands +1, Speed, Blitz, Dusk Feet +1)

So, does the ~10% increase in WS frequency (not factoring DA), 77 Attack, ~4 base damage (including fSTR), and Crit rate +~2% compensate for the 25% piercing bonus, stronger WS, and 2% DA rate?

Thanks for the replies, btw. I forgot about RC builds which is amusing because for a while I was obsessed with them.


* I guess I should note that I have Fortitude Axe and I'm 5000ISP from Perdu Voulge. *

[Limlight]

honestly i'd love to see some comp. testing with perdu war with a really good RR build vs a really good polearm war build on birds. Not "doing math" but some actual parses and such just to see the results. (i don't see many polearm wars on my server period)

[requim]

Think about it this way:

Sams going to polearm drop a hit, gain 25% damage bonus, and get a real multihit WS (lolrana)

Wars lower their skill, gimp their 6 hit, and sidegrade their ws just for that 25% damage increase.

Both can definitely work, but I think it's obvious that sams have much, much more reason to go to polearm than a war does.

[Shinryuu]

Obviously with things like Hasso

Of course you hasso. Haste samba too, make a DNC friend.

[Thorny]

honestly i'd love to see some comp. testing with perdu war with a really good RR build vs a really good polearm war build on birds. Not "doing math" but some actual parses and such just to see the results.

Math > Parses

It's very easy for a parse to give poor results, as melee won't reengage at the same speed and people die/seigan/afk/etc different amounts. Additionally, many will wait until as high as 200-250 TP to weaponskill as they aren't paying attention. If you do the math, there's human margin of error as well as pdif variance, but it's a far far better estimate.

[Callisto]

Is spending your ACP body on Acc10/Atk10 really worth not dropping 100k~ on a Haub?

[pchan]

Actually, it's incredibly easy to cap accuracy in a WS setup on PUP (while using Sushi of course). Fuck accuracy in both slots and go Rajas/STR ring.

Only if you are using sole sushi+1 at birds, and not crab sushi. You will not cap "easily" at mamoolja camps either. And your statement is totally assuming that you don't put str in other slots that rings pretty much. I'd rather equip usukane legs for WS instead of vounteer brais than equiping rajas in place of toreador's, or, equipping faith torque for 1 DMG 7 att instead of PCC.

[Siniroth]

I also have two RNG related questions...

1.I feel like I know the answer to this, but I just wanted to check: Which belt, Buccaneer's or Scout's, is better for TP and WS. I feel like the TP answer is more obvious, but I could see it both ways for WS.

2. For hands are Seiryu's Kote or Skadi's Bazubahns (SP?) better for WS? Would it depend on the amount of Strength already stacked?

1. Scout's for TP unless you don't need any acc, Buccaneer's will give higher damage for Slugwinder, but Scout's helps to offput the fail accuracy rate of it, will probably be more consistent damage but I don't have maths to prove

2. Skadi's for damage, Seiryu's when you need any acc.

[Thorny]

1. Scout's for TP unless you don't need any acc, Buccaneer's will give higher damage for Slugwinder, but Scout's helps to offput the fail accuracy rate of it, will probably be more consistent damage but I don't have maths to prove

2. Skadi's for damage, Seiryu's when you need any acc.

fSTR2 = 2 base damage from buccaneer's for sidewinder, whereas scout's is 1.5
r.atk and extra accuracy from AGI will essentially always make scouts better

for slug, 25% agi mod means scouts gives 1.25 and 16%(seems out of place, maybe needs testing, but it's on badwiki) STR mod combined with fSTR2 means you're comparing 2.64 base damage from buccaneers to 1.25 from scouts and then it's dependant on your r.atk, but you're still going to likely always want scouts as 1.4 base damage on a 100+ damage setup is going to amount to <1.5% damage.. 5 r.atk will usually be about 1% and 2.5 r.acc is 1.25% hitrate /shrug

[ZhiGaruda]

fSTR2 = 2 base damage from buccaneer's for sidewinder, whereas scout's is 1.5
r.atk and extra accuracy from AGI will essentially always make scouts better

for slug, 25% agi mod means scouts gives 1.25 and 16%(seems out of place, maybe needs testing, but it's on badwiki) STR mod combined with fSTR2 means you're comparing 2.64 base damage from buccaneers to 1.25 from scouts and then it's dependant on your r.atk, but you're still going to likely always want scouts as 1.4 base damage on a 100+ damage setup is going to amount to <1.5% damage.. 5 r.atk will usually be about 1% and 2.5 r.acc is 1.25% hitrate /shrug

This is why I'm hot

[Siniroth]

I was going with something that was posted against those arguments you just gave me that had scouts coming out better It was in last thread iirc, no time to find right now (getting ready for work)

I know with my gear scout's beats buccaneer's, someone had posted that after a certain point buccaneer's gets better, I forget what that point is

[Kyte]

Only if you are using sole sushi+1 at birds, and not crab sushi. You will not cap "easily" at mamoolja camps either. And your statement is totally assuming that you don't put str in other slots that rings pretty much. I'd rather equip usukane legs for WS instead of vounteer brais than equiping rajas in place of toreador's

I don't really like using PUP at mamoolja camps, so I won't comment on that. And it isn't too hard to use a higher quality food than crab sushi on birds as a PUP. Your hate is split, so you won't get your food eaten nearly as often. I personally use bream.


And no, my statement isn't assuming anything of the kind. My WS accuracy is completely capped on birds with sushi, and I don't even have Surge Subligar or a Virtuoso Belt yet.

equipping faith torque for 1 DMG 7 att instead of PCC.

I'd rather use a Soil Gorget

[Byrthnoth]

Is spending your ACP body on Acc10/Atk10 really worth not dropping 100k~ on a Haub?

Well, right now my priorities are:
1) Get Bard geared well. I'm assuming this is the job I'll spend 90% of my event-time on
2) Keep BST gear up to date as I level it to get seals/etc and make gil.
3) Regear RDM well enough that I can solo ZNMs and new NMs.
4) Buy my BLM the essential bits, but don't try to regear it to what it was.
5) Get an item for each slot so I can go back to skilling up/farming/FoVing as WAR/DNC.
6) Get a melee build that lets me put out respectable damage in places like NI, assault, and Birds camp.

Notable body armors are Duelist Tabard, Dalmatica, and Oracle's Robe. Close to Yigit body for BRD. Assuming I'm going to buy Weskit + Errant Hpl. anyway, I can't really see a better short-term use for the body unless I want a minor nuking body upgrade for RDM and BLM. Because my gil is focused on 1-4, it seems giving the ACP body to 5 and 6 is a fair trade when it'd only save me ~20k and be a minor nuking upgrade for RDM and BLM otherwise.

[Thorny]

I forget what that point is

that point is soul voice minuets, dia2/3, war sub, and capped hitrate

ie: places where you should change the fuck to drk

[Wolfknight]

Is spending your ACP body on Acc10/Atk10 really worth not dropping 100k~ on a Haub?

It's almost never worth, anyone who does is probably foolish, acc/stp is much better choice for a lot of jobs, unless it's a ws only piece.