What's Better?

[Fottiti]

I keep reading people say this, but most I imagine have not seen a Yoichi rng on DI. In several of my fights while using Yoichi, I took zero damage; in others, incidental damge from others pulling hate of like a few hundred points. If I ever died to DI, it was one of the first few fights when I was seeing how much damage I could do.

Go sam/thf or /war, use seigan before WS and learn to move. If your tanks are decent they will get hate before it hits you.

A melee job can easily avoid all ixion's tp moves if they don't suck and your tanks should be constantly reaching VE cap virtually every flash/cure and even utsusemi so even if you did a WS for 1.5k+ it will a matter of waiting for pld to do anything before it goes back to them.

In lieu of the pro rng comments which will inevitably follow I hope someone can find more uses for rng as a job. I would be as happy as anyone to see rng be really good for something other than widescan but right now it isn't.

[Fottiti]

I think you have it backwards. Tyger is basically Khim but significantly easier/weaker, lol.

Why do you keep reverting back to merit conditions, merit!=HNM

RNG wouldn't be using a KClub on HNMs, normally won't be sub WAR, they'll be /SAM for lower x-hit builds in most situations.

If you learn to read I was using the merit conditions to make referance to the rate at which soboro gains tp in comparison to K club.

[ZhiGaruda]

Go sam/thf or /war, use seigan before WS and learn to move. If your tanks are decent they will get hate before it hits you.

A melee job can easily avoid all ixion's tp moves if they don't suck and your tanks should be constantly reaching VE cap virtually every flash/cure and even utsusemi so even if you did a WS for 1.5k+ it will a matter of waiting for pld to do anything before it goes back to them.

In lieu of the pro rng comments which will inevitably follow I hope someone can find more uses for rng as a job. I would be as happy as anyone to see rng be really good for something other than widescan but right now it isn't.

Taking the time to run away from the mob to get decent distance on it, the RNG will have landed 1, if not 2 hits, which will significantly impact all of the calculations you've done for TP gain in the RNG's benefit.

[Fottiti]

I meant Coronach from RNG/WAR firing in sweet spot is going to be 1.5-2x stronger than Namas from SAM/WAR firing from point blank, definitely 2x if compared to SAM/DRG.
TP gain I considered to be equal.

Yes Rng will definitely WS for higher numbers but the difference in tp gain between a stand and shoot rng and a sam/war or /drg with hasso and atleast 1 form of haste is quite large.

[Fottiti]

Taking the time to run away from the mob to get decent distance on it, the RNG will have landed 1, if not 2 hits, which will significantly impact all of the calculations you've done for TP gain in the RNG's benefit.

TP gain was for a kraken club rng so it doesn't apply to ixion. Yes its difficult to quantify how avoiding tp moves will affect sam's overall damage.

[Tsuko_Asura]

425 acc isn't enough to cap accuracy on HNMs. With perfect gear and amano, I get 85-90% acc on HNMs that matter if I don't use pizza. With Soboro that's gonna turn in 10% less hit rate.
SAM/DRG with soboro might be able to get tp quite fast, but you'd also have totally crappy ratk (something like 400 less than a RNG due to skill, food, 25% ratk penalty for WSing close to the mob and berserk).
Even if they WS twice as fast, I dont think it would make up for the loss of barrage, 2x weaker WSs, and dmg during TP phase.



I meant Coronach from RNG/WAR firing in sweet spot is going to be 1.5-2x stronger than Namas from SAM/WAR firing from point blank, definitely 2x if compared to SAM/DRG.
TP gain I considered to be equal.

I'm absolutely convinced that you're not reading anything I'm saying at this point.

[Byrthnoth]

I've seen a Yoichi RNG on DI. I'm just trying to imagine a DI kill slow enough that Yoichi RNG will cap hate* (it'd happen long after non-relic RNGs due to Slug vs. Namas).

* and it will matter

[Yarko]

I'm absolutely convinced that you're not reading anything I'm saying at this point.

Do elaborate

[Tsuko_Asura]

Losing Barrage and significant damage during TP phase is not a negative for Yoichi SAM

[Yarko]

The point was that Annihilator RNG can stay below total enmity cap without giving up Barrage and dmg during tp phase, and thus resulting in more dmg than yoichi SAM due to 2x stronger WSs despite the 0.5x ws frequency.

Those numbers are totally eyeballed though, cause I can't be assed to do the maths atm.

[Tsuko_Asura]

When its something as close as this, I don't think eyeballing is enough to make blanket statements like that.

[Vodou]

Go sam/thf or /war, use seigan before WS and learn to move. If your tanks are decent they will get hate before it hits you.

A melee job can easily avoid all ixion's tp moves if they don't suck and your tanks should be constantly reaching VE cap virtually every flash/cure and even utsusemi so even if you did a WS for 1.5k+ it will a matter of waiting for pld to do anything before it goes back to them.

In lieu of the pro rng comments which will inevitably follow I hope someone can find more uses for rng as a job. I would be as happy as anyone to see rng be really good for something other than widescan but right now it isn't.

You know, I've not seen fought DI well this way. So, here's what I will do....

I'll reserve judgment.

Both you and Failure consistently indicate that not only do Sam/thfs do more damage than rng on DI, but they can do so without taking any damage at all. (Please read your quote above. Failure has admitted that they'd take small damage.)

Both have claimed sam/thf can tank this.

I assume that there are parses of a group of 3 sams, 1 brd, a rdm and a whm killing DI in about 15mins with no deaths. Implicitly, if sam/thf can tank this, does not take much if any damage, and does more damage than rng on DI, then this parse exists.

I don't have a problem learning how stuff can get done a different way (I've changed my views often over time), so until then, I'll just say we don't share the same views.

And just to be clear: no, I'm not being a smart ass about this. I don't have an experience that tells me that melee can't consistently tank this mob, not pull lots of MP while creating a quick kill with a few (3) mages for support.

[Argettio]

WAR or SAM?

I am thinking of leveling a DD (did DRK, but yeah, that's not a DD any more).

I have some WAR gear from DRK, so more inclined with to go with WAR.

I will get Byakko's Haidate long before I hit 75 on either job.

[Vodou]

I've seen a Yoichi RNG on DI. I'm just trying to imagine a DI kill slow enough that Yoichi RNG will cap hate* (it'd happen long after non-relic RNGs due to Slug vs. Namas).

* and it will matter

Did you mean "fast" enough. This one has me stumped.

Capping CE will be easy. The issue is not the speed of the fight, but how fast damage is done versus VE decay. I did a rough calc on it, and Yoichi rng need to do around 1,800 damage per minute assuming a 50-50 split between ranged and Namas and -enmity on gear of around 20% (easily attained with gear - hat/feet/belt/ear - that does not punish damage more than marginally.)

[Fottiti]

You know, I've not seen fought DI well this way. So, here's what I will do....

I'll reserve judgment.

Both you and Failure consistently indicate that not only do Sam/thfs do more damage than rng on DI, but they can do so without taking any damage at all. (Please read your quote above. Failure has admitted that they'd take small damage.)

Both have claimed sam/thf can tank this.

I assume that there are parses of a group of 3 sams, 1 brd, a rdm and a whm killing DI in about 15mins with no deaths. Implicitly, if sam/thf can tank this, does not take much if any damage, and does more damage than rng on DI, then this parse exists.

I don't have a problem learning how stuff can get done a different way (I've changed my views often over time), so until then, I'll just say we don't share the same views.

And just to be clear: no, I'm not being a smart ass about this. I don't have an experience that tells me that melee can't consistently tank this mob, not pull lots of MP while creating a quick kill with a few (3) mages for support.

I have never claimed sam or any melee should be tanking DI. To tank it without taking much damage would require /nin. I do however stand by the idea that a smart sam will far outweigh a smart rng. I wouldn't be surprised if its been melee tanked though (I have held ixion for 5mins as sam/war back when ixion was newish and the only tank got killed) but I think its far from optimal.

I have always fought DI with either 1 or 2 tanks, being pld nin or rdm tank.

I'm not sure what the 3 sams with support killing in 15mins is referring to but yes, 15-20mins is perfectly doable if the sams know how to avoid tp moves and SAWS with seigan/third eye up (this is based on having a function tank party in addition).

Sam can however SAWS with seigan/third eye up and if you tank is half decent he will get hate back before ixion can get through third eye. All his tp moves can easily be outran (Its easier to avoid spear if you are close than it is if you are a rng in animation lock standing 12+ away).

Edit: I don't see how you can kill Ixion "fast" enough to avoid capping enmity unless you have an army of DDs rotating in with tp ready. A good sam will be able to cap hate again before the time is up on his third Sneak Attack with just haste and food.

[Deader2818]

All I gather is,

Both jobs works fine and it doesnt really mater.

[Marcicus]

WAR or SAM?

I am thinking of leveling a DD (did DRK, but yeah, that's not a DD any more).

I have some WAR gear from DRK, so more inclined with to go with WAR.

I will get Byakko's Haidate long before I hit 75 on either job.

If you have some DRK gear that can transfer over to WAR, I'd level WAR.

Speaking of DRK, full Ares vs Heca/Ares mix for Catastrophe? I've heard different opinions on which is better.

[Wulfgang]

Kind of a toss up, I like full Ares's. This is a decent thread about it, although there is not really a definitive conclusion at the end:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...Catastrophe+WS

[thetruepandagod]

Yoichinoyumi vs Annihilator.

People should be getting a rng relic for semi versatility that it grants you in being able to go all out without pulling hate. Annihilator does this better plain and simple while either tying with yoichi or beating it in terms of damage. Do you want to spend 180M for something that could be fixed by pot au fe and gives u the half assed hate loss of an annihilator? If you are looking for a rng relic you should get the gun hands down, BUT if you want a new toy for your sam to give you a tiny increase in certain aspects then knock urself out.

[Fottiti]

People should be getting a rng relic for semi versatility that it grants you in being able to go all out without pulling hate. Annihilator does this better plain and simple while either tying with yoichi or beating it in terms of damage. Do you want to spend 180M for something that could be fixed by pot au fe and gives u the half assed hate loss of an annihilator? If you are looking for a rng relic you should get the gun hands down, BUT if you want a new toy for your sam to give you a tiny increase in certain aspects then knock urself out.

Yes this is true, but its also the same as people getting kikoku's and guttlers, the jobs are sevrely lacking but the relics are still the best weapons for the jobs. If you are intent on getting a relic for X job then yes annihilator is better as far as rng is concerned (and on plenty of servers you will save a kraken club's worth of gil doing annihilator over yoichi).

If you are remotely interested in terms of practical use overall then yoichi is far better because of what it does for sam. Rng sux etc etc.