What's Better?

[thetruepandagod]

If you are remotely interested in terms of practical use overall then yoichi is far better because of what it does for sam. Rng sux etc etc.

Because of what it does for sam?

Honestly i fail to see very many things at all where a yoichi is going to give sam a huge boost outside of colibri's/zerging. What are these plethora of practical uses?

If hes going after which relic does more for which job then it should easily be annihilator.

[Yarko]

I don't particularly like RNG, I just want a relic that helps me be efficient/better at roles where my amano sam or rdm tank don't shine, given that I only like tank/DD roles. I thought of either yoichi or annih for situations like lowman DI, where my SAM would get too much dmg (due to getting hate, i can avoid almost every tp moves otherwise), lowman khim, odin, KB, SW guivre? and maybe PW and JoL. Would Soboro+yoichi SAM or Yoichi RNG really beat Amano SAM or annihilator RNG in any situation that aren't lolmerits or zerg (I have kclub drk)? Meh guess I'll do the maths to answer my own question.

[Fottiti]

Because of what it does for sam?

Honestly i fail to see very many things at all where a yoichi is going to give sam a huge boost outside of colibri's/zerging. What are these plethora of practical uses?

If hes going after which relic does more for which job then it should easily be annihilator.

Because rng is a job with EXTREMELY limited use, in almost every situation sam is preferable if its played by a competant person. You sevrely overstate how much time you spend fighting things that are noticably harder than mamool/colibri.


Regardless of how many mages you have present at ixion sam can get hate after WS and take 0 damage almost every time if your tanks are any good. Odin is a planned event and you can bring enough mages to suit how many sams you have, rng is never preferable when you can plan. SW guirve I guess is one fight where it might be quite nice but blm can do the job in a similar fashion.

lolmerits level of monster applies to events like einherjar/limbus/all but 2 dynamis zones but I haven't seen much on how it performs on HNMs.

[Yarko]

Regardless of how many mages you have present at ixion sam can get hate after WS and take 0 damage almost every time if your tanks are any good.

You're overestimating the rate at which PLD can gain CE on DI, SAM not holding back and playing aggresively (as I do) is going to cap hate much faster, especially in low man situations. If I'm not tanking it on RDM, I'd rather come as a job that can go all out but at the same time allow PLD to build enough hate, such as yoichi or annih RNG. Just can't decide which one is better! And whether soboro+yoichi sam is really that effective... I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who actually owns soboro+yoichi and uses it on HNMs, or has seen the combo in action.

[Vodou]

Because rng is a job with EXTREMELY limited use

What!

Let me get this straight. It's almost 2010, and you are helping us (how?) by letting us know that rng is limited. Do you not know that almost everything in this game can be done by pld, nin, war, sam, rdm, whm, brd, blm and thf?

(That's 9 of the 20 jobs.)

That means 11 (55%) of the jobs are limited. Most jobs have niches in which they excel. (Niche = small place; excel = superior.) That means, yes sam can try doing what other jobs can do better, but in an age where people have multiple 75's and some have resources to get a second relic, why continue.

So to prove your bias about any job that is not the 'top 9', you offer a bow to a sam to use exactly where? Zerging a salvage boss? Doing bird camp? On the one hand you insist that sam can do everything as a melee and then you suggest a bow is what sam can use better than a rng.

Your point is :if you have an amano (as the OP does), there are times (outside of zerging a salvage boss or doing xp birds) where its best to remove the amamo and go sobo yoichi and these will be far more beneficial than getting the best rng weapon(s) available for your rng.

[Byrthnoth]

I'm not convinced that Amano is going to outperform Soboro/Yoichi on any merit mobs, not just birds. I'd argue that anywhere you can land Namas regularly, Soboro/Yoichi is probably going to out-do Amano.

[FailureMidgard]

You know, I've not seen fought DI well this way. So, here's what I will do....

I'll reserve judgment.

Both you and Failure consistently indicate that not only do Sam/thfs do more damage than rng on DI, but they can do so without taking any damage at all. (Please read your quote above. Failure has admitted that they'd take small damage.)

Both have claimed sam/thf can tank this.

I assume that there are parses of a group of 3 sams, 1 brd, a rdm and a whm killing DI in about 15mins with no deaths. Implicitly, if sam/thf can tank this, does not take much if any damage, and does more damage than rng on DI, then this parse exists.

I don't have a problem learning how stuff can get done a different way (I've changed my views often over time), so until then, I'll just say we don't share the same views.

And just to be clear: no, I'm not being a smart ass about this. I don't have an experience that tells me that melee can't consistently tank this mob, not pull lots of MP while creating a quick kill with a few (3) mages for support.

Wait what, I don't recall mentioning a SJ. I think sam/thf is an awful choice on DI. Sam/nin can stay in for Rampant Stances, and can survive -just as well as a paladin- when he pulls hate, assuming a: haste, b: at least 1 march, and c: someone to erase you. Counting to 3 is counting to 3, regardless of job. We can get into the oh shit buttons a paladin has, but Sam still has a better base PDT set, same MDT set, and seigan+thirdeye as well. Maybe a paladin is just barley more survivable (and can generate hate from the front), but we have at least 2 sams in our shell that can easily "cotank" DI, sometimes we even put 1 in the tank party.

As far as your parse, no, I don't think anyone really cares enough to do that. It seems unlikely to me that a shell that kills DI with 5 people would even be claiming DI to begin with. Furthermore, a sam can't tank DI traditionally, as I've said before, because you can't maintain hate. You can bounce it fine though, but damage from the front is not happening, obviously. Anyway, I've seen tons of parses of Sams beating rangers on DI, but I'm not really sure what the fuck that proves (sorry, I don't have any on me at the moment, I'll maybe try to get one for you within the next week if you'd like, seeing as we have no competition atm).

Anyway, you don't even have to move out of Wrath or Spear if you have a good MDT set and the mage doesn't mind tossing 1 cure your way, shouldn't hit over like 6-700 on spear, and less on wrath (w/ shell5 and a full MDT set), but it's debatable if that's ever worth while.

Sorry, but a ranger's strength is still only in it's ability to avoid AoEs. I've argued this a ton in the past, and SpiderDan who disagreed with me came and parsed against me, and I think conceded the point, but if you can count on marches, haste, and staying alive/on target, it is literally not possible for a ranger to keep up with a sam or war (and it isn't even really very close).
So which part of DI makes sam not able to stay alive/on target in your opinion? Stance being ~2 shadows? Pulling Hate? (any non relic rng will pull hate insanely fast still) The insanely predictable and dodge-able or mitigate-able TP moves? I know people like to bash the game and say it takes no skill, and I fully agree it takes nothing special to kill DI, but the vast majority of players will not be able to melee DI properly fulltime, so stick em on ranger and let them dummy mode it, but just because most people can't do it right, doesn't mean ranger will win on all the parses.

[Pikarya]

Usu legs vs. Shura legs +1 for SAM wskill.

[Gustaf the Voidbringer]

I don't have any popular TP options for BLU, so I've been stuck with ACC+10, Double Attack +2%. Should I just use SH+1?

[TybudX]

Change that DA +2% to DW +3% and you're golden.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm not convinced that Amano is going to outperform Soboro/Yoichi on any merit mobs, not just birds. I'd argue that anywhere you can land Namas regularly, Soboro/Yoichi is probably going to out-do Amano.

Completely agree, and given that Namas Arrow has a pretty absurd innate RACC bonus, that's pretty much everywhere(excluding Tiamat, and maybe one or two other mobs I'm overlooking).

[Khalil]

Usu legs vs. Shura legs +1 for SAM wskill.

Y/G/K have an acc/atk bonus, thus missing shouldn't be a great issue. Hachiryu legs > Usu legs > Shura legs.

[Zellgadiss]

I've heard that Othinus' Bow can match Vali's/Eurytos' Bow when using darksteel bolts by having higher DoT to make up for the lower WS dmg. Does anyone have any parses to prove/disprove this? I don't have vali's/eury to do it myself.

I wonder this because my combat merits are capped. To finish sword off I'd have to take 1 out of archery. Marksmanship is capped and wondering if it'd be worth it to keep my archery merit in the hopes that one day I will get a V.bow from the stingy shadow. 0/20. Or will my rng be just fine breaking out the O.bow/HF+1.

RNG BLU PLD COR RDM BLM 75

[seiji]

Y/G/K have an acc/atk bonus, thus missing shouldn't be a great issue. Hachiryu legs > Usu legs > Shura legs.

you miss the +1 for shura, will the 1 extra STR beat the 10attck from usu?

[Wulfgang]

If you can proc acid bolts and the fight isn't over in <20s, Othinus' Bow is always best imo. People who truly optimize with MND gear in certain situations can make O Bow pretty hot (e.g. Temenos, KS99 Wyrm, etc).

[Fottiti]

You're overestimating the rate at which PLD can gain CE on DI, SAM not holding back and playing aggresively (as I do) is going to cap hate much faster, especially in low man situations. If I'm not tanking it on RDM, I'd rather come as a job that can go all out but at the same time allow PLD to build enough hate, such as yoichi or annih RNG. Just can't decide which one is better! And whether soboro+yoichi sam is really that effective... I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who actually owns soboro+yoichi and uses it on HNMs, or has seen the combo in action.

You are assuming the pld is going to be losing a lot of CE, which it shouldn't and it should certainly have capped hate by the time you've left your scouting zone and changed to sam (as the pld is likely to be waiting by the NPC ready to assist whoever claims it in whatever zone).

Drace was the only competant Yoichi owner who ever posted any of his results on sam here afaik (he also didn't do HNMs I believe but did do most of the instanced events). He was pretty much convinced it beat Amano in any situation where your obective isn't trying to DD tank.

From the rest of the yoichi owners who post here I really don't see any providing an good account of how yoichi sam performs on HNMs. Purely anecdotally your accuracy on namas should be no issue due to the innate high accuracy of the WS combined with the fact you will be WSing with racc aftermath up, so it would really depend how badly the lack of rattack will affect it.

[Tsuko_Asura]

One also needs to keep in mind that for Tachi: Kaiten to be worth anything, you're going to require significant attack boosts, just like Namas Arrow. More on topic, though, is that Namas Arrow would literally have to be doing shit damage to get passed the fact that Soboro is going to be getting off five Namas in the time that a ranger will take to get off one Coronach in most situations.

[TMG]

Maybe this is a stupid question but at 4 AM I'm having a hard time coming to a conclusion. Reading conflicting comments online has me wondering what the general consensus is.

For a mithra RNG, Buccaneer's Belt or Scout's Belt for WS? This is my current Sidewinder set with Scout's Belt, not enough points to get a Buccaneer's yet so can't test them myself.
http://i45.tinypic.com/23vgens.jpg
Light Gorget, Bushinomimi, Amemet+1 has RACC+5 augment.

[NynJa]

I'm not convinced that Amano is going to outperform Soboro/Yoichi on any merit mobs, not just birds. I'd argue that anywhere you can land Namas regularly, Soboro/Yoichi is probably going to out-do Amano.

You're severely underestimating its power then.

I've done one dynamis as sam/war with my Futa, the first dynamis after I got it. We regularly parse our dynamis, and its pretty accurate. With barely any merits into sam at the time, not using any food and a half-ass gearset to TP in and spam Namas, I topped out the parse. Its a pretty broken combo.

[Byrthnoth]

Err... I think you read what I said backwards? I think Soboro/Yoichi is better than Amano anywhere that you don't have huge RAcc issues with Namas.