What's Better?

[Despain]

usu feet

Not arguing, but can you explain why? I'm sure this has been asked before, I just can't find it

[Andradi]

Not arguing, but can you explain why? I'm sure this has been asked before, I just can't find it

Because monk is never capped on accuracy (never!) and (more likely) the store TP should cut your hits to 100. Same reason THFs use Skadi legs over Homam and such, I think.

[Cream Soda]

Because monk is never capped on accuracy (never!) and (more likely) the store TP should cut your hits to 100. Same reason THFs use Skadi legs over Homam and such, I think.

Would mainly be the acc. Who cares if it cuts your hits to 100? WS is like 30-35% of a mnk's dmg so when acc is capped, you'd be looking at 5% increase to 30% of your dmg vs a 2.5% increase (59 to 60 haste) for 100% of your damage.

Of course you have the attack though, for what its worth.

[pchan]

Not arguing, but can you explain why? I'm sure this has been asked before, I just can't find it

Because monk is never capped on accuracy (never!) and (more likely) the store TP should cut your hits to 100. Same reason THFs use Skadi legs over Homam and such, I think.

Accuracy part is irrelevant but yes, it's due to more ws spam. I'll assume capped accuracy before feet and won't consider the 7 attack / 5 enmity (= more chance at countering) therefore comparing Haste3% to Haste 2% stp7. I'll assume no usu body (if you have it the difference is even greater due to STP having increasing returns), but brutal and rajas, so I count 6 store TP before feet. Take you favorite ~350 delay weapon (destroyers, Hades Sainti etc). The TP return with 6 stp is 5.1 ; This does not change by removing brutal during asuran fists. The TP return with 13 STP is 5.5 (5.4 during asuran and 1.1 for extra hits).

Calculation of the avergae number of rounds required to reach 100 TP

Fuma :

average WS TP return (2*5.1+6*1.0)*0.95=15.39
average number of hit required : (100-(2*5.1+6*1.0)*0.95)/5.1=16.59
since rounds comme with aproximately 2 melee hits, the last punch will be accompanied with a second punch (TP excess) : 17.09 hits
with 5% DA and 15% KA you average 2.25*0.95=2.1375 hits per round.

=> 17.09/2.1375=7.99 rounds required on average

Haste% STP7 feet :

average WS TP return (2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95=16.53
average number of hit required : (100-(2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95)/5.5=15.17
since rounds comme with aproximately 2 melee hits, the last punch will be accompanied with a second punch (TP excess) : 15.67 hits
with 5% DA and 15% KA you average 2.25*0.95=2.1375 hits per round.

=> 15.67/2.1375=7.33 rounds required on average


Global damage

I could be more technical but I'll just give an idea of why stp is better. Going from 7.99 rounds to 7.33 rounds is a gain of 1.09=+9% weapon skill frequency and therefore damage over some 2% haste feet. If y is your ws damage %, the new damage is (1-y)+y*1.09.



1% haste is between (1-0.24)/(1-0.25)=+1.33% global damage with no haste/march to (1-0.59)/(1-0.60)=+2.5% with haste and double march.

(1-y)+y*1.09>2.5% whenever y>27.8%.


So basically Haste 2% stp 7 wins whenver your ws damage % is > 27.8%. Add 7 attack and it's a clear winner even when you ws gear sucks.

[Cream Soda]

Why is WS gear here? Could always just tp in fuma and ws in usu shoes WHEN acc is capped.

WS tp return shouldn't even matter when u could have the same for both.

[Despain]

What I was looking for. Thanks.

[mdkuser]

Would mainly be the acc. Who cares if it cuts your hits to 100? WS is like 30-35% of a mnk's dmg so when acc is capped, you'd be looking at 5% increase to 30% of your dmg vs a 2.5% increase (59 to 60 haste) for 100% of your damage.

Of course you have the attack though, for what its worth.

just a remark here as I always see you say that. its specific to destroyers: 35% ws 65% melee for me usually. but for Hades sainti (+1) its more like 40%/60%.

[Yugl]

Interesting reading.

The math seems incomplete ?
There are no Weapon Skill Damage Calculations involved :O

Damage calculations were done using percentages. Hence, what you see there should include WSs.

Against monsters that can heal (Gears, ...) isn't it better to be able to explode it before it can heal, using heavy damaging Weapon Skills ? The time you get to 100 TP (5 Hits) again when you used MarchMarchWS, it can heal.

Samurai has access to Meditate and can pop TP out of his ass pretty often, especially during Idle time (waiting for next monster to be available).

If you're in a pure WS situation (Think 2004 Sky NMs SATA WS), then Minuet wins. However, this is rarely the case, and thus, it's safe to say in general, March will win over Minuet. In your specific example, there is no math to suggest one over the other because there's no way to make a general case.

How can you prove that X DMG from ATT will not be overkill (And thus, wasted)? How can you prove that added haste will not be wasted by the mob dying before your next attack, but with roughly 50HP before death? You can do this, but it requires *very* specific information. Overkill applies to every stat, and cannot be calculated in a way to compensate for every situation. Hence, it is not considered in calculations. However, it is still possible to determine damage increases through percentages.

Your specific question has two responses. First, SAM WSs (Penta aside) are relatively unaffected by Minuet (If at all) since SAM WSs gain a heavy ACC and ATT boost. This makes march even more important since it increases the number of WSs involved. You neglect the fact that Haste makes you hit *faster*. So while it *may* occur that you won't reach 100TP to finish the mob faster, it may also be the case that because your attacks are so slow, not only did you not land the finishing hit, but you also gained TP at a slower rate to begin with; hence, even though you may not hit as hard on your WS, that extra damage can be made up by the fact that you're WSing earlier, and thus, getting more swings in to begin with.

When you hit a monster, depending on your Attack and it's Defense, you remove a % of it's HP.
How does this maths proves that when you hit % faster you'll remove more %HP than with a boost of Attack on a specific monster without taking it's Defense nor VIT in account ? @_@ I'm confused :S

It takes a look at your overall damage then makes adjustments to it based on the gear choice (Haste v ATT) in different situations. In other words, it doesn't look at raw DMG, but rather percent increments.

[FailureMidgard]

Fuma :

average WS TP return (2*5.1+6*1.0)*0.95=15.39


Haste% STP7 feet :

average WS TP return (2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95=16.53

I'm too lazy to read or check the rest of pchans math, cause it's usually insanely faulty in every assumption he makes, such as the example provided. You don't get a larger WS TP return with usu feet, because nobody in their right mind is going to opt to WS in fumas over Usu feet. The debate is TP Fuma, WS Usu vs fulltime Usu. Pchan is just too dumb to comprehend this.

[Andradi]

The correct answer is of course usukane gives 7% haste to a monk who Sucks Less™.

[OgriBones]

Hey im starting a new Salvage group MNK/NIN or MNK/WAR tank?

I've always thought it was MNK/NIN but friend keeps sayin MNK/WAR.

[Cream Soda]

Hey im starting a new Salvage group MNK/NIN or MNK/WAR tank?

I've always thought it was MNK/NIN but friend keeps sayin MNK/WAR.

If /nin, shadows, ect wasn't required, there would be no mnk at all. War/sam fulltiming hasso + retaliation would easily outclass mnk in every way if that were the case.

[Eole]

@Yugl
Thank you for explaining this^^

[pchan]

Why is WS gear here? Could always just tp in fuma and ws in usu shoes WHEN acc is capped.

WS tp return shouldn't even matter when u could have the same for both.

Seriously, the equipment you have during weaponskill doesn't fucking matter beside +/- abyssmal ajustement, so I just simplified it. It has absolutely ZERO impact on the outcome. Usu wins.

I'm too lazy to read or check the rest of pchans math, cause it's usually insanely faulty in every assumption he makes, such as the example provided. You don't get a larger WS TP return with usu feet, because nobody in their right mind is going to opt to WS in fumas over Usu feet. The debate is TP Fuma, WS Usu vs fulltime Usu. Pchan is just too dumb to comprehend this.

If you even knew the contribution of WS tp return to your TP gain you'd realise that what you say is stupid. I mean stacking store TP during Asuran fist is not what will decide between which is the best.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

So let me do the math if you assume +7 store TP on WS for both setups.

Calculation of the avergae number of rounds required to reach 100 TP

Fuma :

average WS TP return (2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95=16.53
average number of hit required : (100-(2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95)/5.1=16.36
since rounds comme with aproximately 2 melee hits, the last punch will be accompanied with a second punch (TP excess) : 16.86 hits
with 5% DA and 15% KA you average 2.25*0.95=2.1375 hits per round.

=> 16.86/2.1375=7.89 rounds required on average

Haste% STP7 feet :

average WS TP return (2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95=16.53
average number of hit required : (100-(2*5.4+6*1.1)*0.95)/5.5=15.17
since rounds comme with aproximately 2 melee hits, the last punch will be accompanied with a second punch (TP excess) : 15.67 hits
with 5% DA and 15% KA you average 2.25*0.95=2.1375 hits per round.

=> 15.67/2.1375=7.33 rounds required on average


Global damage

I could be more technical but I'll just give an idea of why stp is better. Going from 7.89 rounds to 7.33 rounds is a gain of 1.09=+7.64% weapon skill frequency and therefore damage over some 2% haste feet. If y is your ws damage %, the new damage is (1-y)+y*1.0764.



1% haste is between (1-0.24)/(1-0.25)=+1.33% global damage with no haste/march to (1-0.59)/(1-0.60)=+2.5% with haste and double march.


With no haste or marches : Usu > fuma if ws damage > 17.4%
With haste only : usu > fuma if ws damage >21.8%
with haste and single march : usu > fuma if ws damage > 26.7%
with haste and double march : usu > fuma if ws damage > 32.7%


If you take the 7 attack and the potentiel 7acc/5 enmity into account fuma never wins.

[Cream Soda]

never isnt the correct word

[Yugl]

If you even knew the contribution of WS tp return to your TP gain you'd realise that what you say is stupid. I mean stacking store TP during Asuran fist is not what will decide between which is the best.

Did you not read what you just quoted? He said specifically that Usukane v Fuma is never up for debate when discussing WS because no one would choose Fuma > Usukane for WS.

In short, he said WS in Usukane is better than WS in Fuma.

[Cream Soda]

Did you not read what you just quoted? He said specifically that Usukane v Fuma is never up for debate when discussing WS because no one would choose Fuma > Usukane for WS.

In short, he said WS in Usukane is better than WS in Fuma.

Also this.

Fucking learn how to read. Seriously. Either that or go to w/e fucking your native language's version of ffxi forums.

[pchan]

Did you not read what you just quoted? He said specifically that Usukane v Fuma is never up for debate when discussing WS because no one would choose Fuma > Usukane for WS.

In short, he said WS in Usukane is better than WS in Fuma.

I never said the opposite, my first math assumed that the person doesn't have usukane at all and my second assumed it does have it. So learn2read, also.

never isnt the correct word

which situation then ? lol dancer ?

[firepixiedarien]

PLD/NIN Food:

1. Dorado sushi

or

2. Tentacle sushi


if it matters, I don't have brutal ear and rajas, but I do have joytoy and atonement.

[Yugl]

I never said the opposite, my first math assumed that the person doesn't have usukane at all and my second assumed it does have it. So learn2read, also.

I'm going to help you realize something.

1. The argument is over feet for melee; not WS. Do we agree or disagree? If we agree, see 2a. If we disagree, see 2b.

2a. Since this is an argument over feet for melee, TP from WS is irrelevant since one could easily macro in Usukane feet for WS if it makes a difference. Even if they don't have Usukane, WSing in Fumas is stupid anyways. Do we agree or disagree? If we agree, see 3a. If we disagree, see 3b.

2b. This is a discussion about TP gear, not WS gear.

3a. This leaves us with the faulty assumption that FM was trying to point out. If it's a discussion about feet TP gear, it means TP return from WS is irrelevant since you can macro in gear specifically for WS. Since this is the case, TP returns from WS can be equal, regardless of whether you use Fumas or Usukane for TP gain. Do we agree or disagree? If we agree, see 4a. If we disagree, see 4b.

3b. Why would you want to WS Fumas over Usukane? We shouldn't be discussing this.

4a. Since WS TP return can be the same regardless of which item you decide to TP in, it's irrelevant in calculation. However, since you did calculations in which one player used Fumas for WS and the other used Usukane, you made an assumption. This assumption, according to you, is that the person using Fumas does not have access to Usukane. This assumption is flawed.

4b. If you can change gears during WS, you can make it such that the WS TP return is equal.