What's Better?

[Argettio]

So pull happens, you sleep, you get top of the hate list, you log, you login, you have no hate.

The act of sleeping the mobs puts you at the top of the hate table (you are logging so you don't get dry bummed when they wake). So I guess the 'looking' happens while the mob is asleep.

But the key is, you were the top of the list when you logged (or became top of the list while you were gone).

Edit: As for the RNG at DI

Logging off and hoping that the Tank take a big hit to push you to the top is not a viable means of hate management (as it requires a degree of luck).

[Shinryuu]

I feel as though I need to reconsider who I ban from my $50 donation.

No. Since a lot of people will ban pchan it might not come back to BG after the ban period which is worth a lot. Bans have increasing returns (!).

[Eole]

A decent pole SAM using sushi (with appropriate build) with chaos as the only attack roll/song will be averaging 900-1100 pentas (very roughly)

They will also have 7-10% more haste, which based on standard buffs is a 13-19% increase in WS rate.

So in the time it take you to do 5 WS, a sushi SAM will have done 6... That's like moving from a 6 to 5 hit build! (very roughly).

Based on the the gear swaps suggested you will only have 20-40 more attack than the sushi SAM, 20-40 attack vs ~16% more WS... easy decision.

Meat builds are possible, but 'iffy' at best, as with perfect gear you only reach ~93% acc without sacrificing massive amounts of haste (virtuoso belt in TP)

Tried Crab Sushi with my own equipment and I felt like crap.
I know some will say it's eyeballing, but I'm being honest, it just doesn't feel right.
Especially /NIN because I play with a Dancer as a Main Healer.

This was my TP stuff :

input /equip waist "Swift Belt";
input /equip back "Forager's Mantle";
input /equip body "Haubergeon";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Fowling Earring";
input /equip head "Walahra Turban";
input /equip ammo "Goblin Cracker";
input /equip sub "Pole Grip";
input /equip neck "Peacock Charm";
input /equip main "Engetsuto";
input /equip feet "Usukane Sune-Ate";
input /equip ring1 "Toreador's Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Rajas Ring";
input /equip legs "Byakko's Haidate";
input /equip hands "Hachiman Kote";

This was my WS stuff :

input /equip hands "Ochimusha Kote";
input /equip waist "Warwolf Belt";
input /equip back "Forager's Mantle";
input /equip neck "Shadow Gorget";
input /equip head "Champion's Galea"; (WSAcc+15 Acc+10 Atk+5 Str+4)
input /equip body "Haubergeon";
input /equip ammo "Goblin Cracker";
input /equip sub "Pole Grip";
input /equip main "Engetsuto";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Fowling Earring";
input /equip feet "Usukane Sune-Ate";
input /equip legs "Byakko's Haidate";
input /equip ring1 "Flame Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Rajas Ring";

PS: input because FFXIAH sets.

I did many 500-600 Penta while usually I run for 1200-1300 (can go to 1.8~, max was /war DA'ed 2300+)

[Shin Volcano]

In both instances you were removed from the hate list because the mobs "looked" for you, you weren't there (logged off), and so were removed from their hate list completely. Now, if you log off and the mob *doesn't* look for you, your position on it's "hate list" doesn't change. So for logging off to have any effect, something needs to happen to put you at the top of a mob's hate list e.g. tanks die while you're logged off, mob looks for you, you're not there, hate is erased.

This is pretty much what i was trying to explain in a more harsh way, if you were doing something for example that the mob kept turning to you you loged off, and during that time if the tank lost hate or at ANY random point the mob looked for you, you had a good chance of erasing hate, instead of just dying, only times i had needed to do it was when the mob would just randomly turn due to diminishing hate on tank or tanks,

Also still looking for feed back on alakroups for helix spells that isnt cryohelix or possibly lum bascialy for staffs without INT on it.

So when you log back on, you had a good chance of hate being reset if the mob tried to look for you, but it sometimes fails if hate was not shifted during your absense. which is why i think he found dying to be easier, but it never became an issue for me. but i normaly just avoided that by a -enimity build. so either it looked for me at those points i loged off or hate was sustained long enough.

[Shin Volcano]

In both instances you were removed from the hate list because the mobs "looked" for you, you weren't there (logged off), and so were removed from their hate list completely. Now, if you log off and the mob *doesn't* look for you, your position on it's "hate list" doesn't change. So for logging off to have any effect, something needs to happen to put you at the top of a mob's hate list e.g. tanks die while you're logged off, mob looks for you, you're not there, hate is erased.

This is pretty much what i was trying to explain in a more harsh way, if you were doing something for example that the mob kept turning to you you loged off, and during that time if the tank lost hate or at ANY random point the mob looked for you, you had a good chance of erasing hate, instead of just dying, only times i had needed to do it was when the mob would just randomly turn due to diminishing hate on tank or tanks,

So when you log back on, you had a good chance of hate being reset if the mob tried to look for you, but it sometimes fails if hate was not shifted during your absense. which is why i think he found dying to be easier, but it never became an issue for me. but i normaly just avoided that by a -enimity build. so either it looked for me at those points i loged off or hate was sustained long enough.


Also, still looking for feedback on Alakroups vs staffs for helix spells without INT on the staff like cryohelix, but rather say hydro or pyrohelix.

[Argettio]

Tried Crab Sushi with my own equipment and I felt like crap.
I know some will say it's eyeballing, but I'm being honest, it just doesn't feel right.
Especially /NIN because I play with a Dancer as a Main Healer.

This was my TP stuff :

input /equip waist "Swift Belt";
input /equip back "Forager's Mantle";
input /equip body "Haubergeon";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Fowling Earring";
input /equip head "Walahra Turban";
input /equip ammo "Goblin Cracker";
input /equip sub "Pole Grip";
input /equip neck "Peacock Charm";
input /equip main "Engetsuto";
input /equip feet "Usukane Sune-Ate";
input /equip ring1 "Toreador's Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Rajas Ring";
input /equip legs "Byakko's Haidate";
input /equip hands "Hachiman Kote";

This was my WS stuff :

input /equip hands "Ochimusha Kote";
input /equip waist "Warwolf Belt";
input /equip back "Forager's Mantle";
input /equip neck "Shadow Gorget";
input /equip head "Champion's Galea"; (WSAcc+15 Acc+10 Atk+5 Str+4)
input /equip body "Haubergeon";
input /equip ammo "Goblin Cracker";
input /equip sub "Pole Grip";
input /equip main "Engetsuto";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Fowling Earring";
input /equip feet "Usukane Sune-Ate";
input /equip legs "Byakko's Haidate";
input /equip ring1 "Flame Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Rajas Ring";

PS: input because FFXIAH sets.

I did many 500-600 Penta while usually I run for 1200-1300 (can go to 1.8~, max was /war DA'ed 2300+)

No offence but there is no way you are averaging over 1k with that gear with meat. Your hit rate would be around 70% if you had merits (very roughly, cba to work out the exact figure)

Go parse yourself and see.

Your Penta average is going to struggle without berserk but with that gear sushi should be the only choice.

[Shinryuu]

Meat builds are possible, but 'iffy' at best, as with perfect gear you only reach ~93% acc without sacrificing massive amounts of haste (virtuoso belt in TP)

On birds my polearm SAM has 87% base hitrate on high birds, so 92% base on low birds, with /WAR, Hasso, and more importantly without Ace's and Usukane body/feet. No black tathlum either. Now, effective hitrate is then 90.42% on higher birds and 93.28% on lower birds. However, this doesn't take into account double attack and Zanshin not being able to proc together (tired/lazy/whatever). Since SAM's maximum effective hitrate is 97.14% (DA doesn't matter here) I'd say meat builds are very well possible.

Argettio, are you forgetting about Zanshin?

[Callisto]

Also still looking for feed back on alakroups for helix spells that isnt cryohelix or possibly lum bascialy for staffs without INT on it.

No, I doubt 15% will be beaten by 10 INT, but could be wrong (not got the time to do the maths)

That would only apply to cryohelix since aquilo's has 5 INT +elemental skill, i'm speaking in regards to the other helix spells that staff does not support INT let's use hydrohelix for example.

I don't really get what you're saying there, Alka vs. Aquilos would be 15% vs. 5 INT, they said 15% vs. 10 INT which would be Alka vs. a HQ staff with no INT...the 15% will beat 10 INT...

[Eole]

No offence but there is no way you are averaging over 1k with that gear with meat. Your hit rate would be around 70% if you had merits (very roughly, cba to work out the exact figure)

Go parse yourself and see.

Your Penta average is going to struggle without berserk but with that gear sushi should be the only choice.

Yes, I will parse and continue to gather equipment for now.

I have maxed merits Great Katana, Polearm, STR, Overwhelm, Meditate, etc...

My HitRate is 86% with Hasso (81% without) and Usukane Somen + Virtuoso Belt using Meat while TPing and WSing with Champ's Galea + Virtuoso Belt.

[Shinryuu]

That's pretty bad.

[Eole]

That's pretty bad.

How would you make it better ?

My actual sets using meat :

WS :
input /equip hands "Ochimusha Kote";
input /equip waist "Virtuoso Belt";
input /equip back "Forager's Mantle";
input /equip neck "Shadow Gorget";
input /equip head "Champion's Galea";
input /equip body "Haubergeon";
input /equip ammo "Goblin Cracker"; => Tiphia
input /equip sub "Pole Grip";
input /equip main "Engetsuto";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Fowling Earring";
input /equip feet "Usukane Sune-Ate";
input /equip legs "Byakko's Haidate";
input /equip ring1 "Flame Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Rajas Ring";

TP:
input /equip waist "Virtuoso Belt";
input /equip back "Forager's Mantle";
input /equip body "Haubergeon";
input /equip ear1 "Brutal Earring";
input /equip ear2 "Fowling Earring";
input /equip head "Usukane Somen";
input /equip ammo "Goblin Cracker"; => Tiphia
input /equip sub "Pole Grip";
input /equip neck "Peacock Charm";
input /equip main "Engetsuto";
input /equip feet "Usukane Sune-Ate";
input /equip ring1 "Toreador's Ring";
input /equip ring2 "Rajas Ring";
input /equip legs "Byakko's Haidate";
input /equip hands "Hachiman Kote";

[Nermie]

What's better: Stop visiting BG or adding Shin Volcano to my ignore list?

[Shinryuu]

Cuchulain's, Haubergeon +1, Turban, Swift belt, Tomoe/Love Halberd. How are you getting such a low hitrate? Don't need Hachiman kote for Love (natural 7-hit, 6-hit is impossible) so can use Dusk if using Love.

Edit: that's just for TP gear. WS gear depends on your WS hitrate. I'd start by WSing in Tor ring.

[Argettio]

On birds my polearm SAM has 87% base hitrate on high birds, so 92% base on low birds, with /WAR, Hasso, and more importantly without Ace's and Usukane body/feet. No black tathlum either. Now, effective hitrate is then 90.42% on higher birds and 93.28% on lower birds. However, this doesn't take into account double attack and Zanshin not being able to proc together (tired/lazy/whatever). Since SAM's maximum effective hitrate is 97.14% (DA doesn't matter here) I'd say meat builds are very well possible.

Argettio, are you forgetting about Zanshin?

I am not forgetting about it, AFAIK Zanshin does not allow you to break the 95% hit rate cap only change the effective 'value' of accuracy when comparing it to other stats (haste attack etc).

Link to the test which shows 95% is the hard cap and can never be broken


I know Soda always quotes ~93% in his full usukane SAM while full timing hasso, so based on that (and looking over the numbers myself) I can't see a SAM reach 95% on birds with a polearm without taking big cuts.

[Shin Volcano]

I don't really get what you're saying there, Alka vs. Aquilos would be 15% vs. 5 INT, they said 15% vs. 10 INT which would be Alka vs. a HQ staff with no INT...the 15% will beat 10 INT...

Meh, i got sidetracked with all the crap, nice to know at least, just wanted to see if it was worth getting for sch

What's better: Stop visiting BG or adding Shin Volcano to my ignore list?

You funny bro. if i get under your skin that easy you should probably stop visiting BG, not everyone agrees with logic here, it's nothing new.

[Shinryuu]

Zanshin breaks effective hitrate. Even with capped ACC you still hit more than you would w/o Zanshin, namely (5*.45*.95)% more.

[Callisto]

The only real usefulness for Alka is RDM debuffing and BLM Elemental DoTs if they can't hit the INT tier while still using HQ staves.

[Eole]

Cuchulain's, Haubergeon +1, Turban, Swift belt, Tomoe/Love Halberd. How are you getting such a low hitrate? Don't need Hachiman kote for Love (natural 7-hit, 6-hit is impossible) so can use Dusk if using Love.

Edit: that's just for TP gear. WS gear depends on your WS hitrate. I'd start by WSing in Tor ring.

ACC= 377
Hasso Hit Rate = 85%
Seigan Hit Rate = 80%
Haste=16%

main "Tomoe"
sub "Pole Grip"
ammo "Tiphia Sting"
head "Walahra Turban"
neck "Peacock Charm"
ear1 "Brutal Earring"
ear2 "Fowling Earring"
body "Haubergeon +1"
hands "Hachiman Kote"
ring1 "Toreador's Ring"
ring2 "Rajas Ring"
back "Cuchulain's Mantle"
waist "Swift Belt"
legs "Byakko's Haidate"
feet "Usukane Sune-Ate"

I own a Love Halberd, but you have to farm organs.

[pchan]

I did many 500-600 Penta while usually I run for 1200-1300 (can go to 1.8~, max was /war DA'ed 2300+)

65 attack cannot double your pdif so NO, you are wrong. 65 attack will be at best 65*0.3=+19.5% increase in damage. All the worse that you get minuet or chaos buffs.

Yes, I will parse and continue to gather equipment for now.

I have maxed merits Great Katana, Polearm, STR, Overwhelm, Meditate, etc...

My HitRate is 86% with Hasso (81% without) and Usukane Somen + Virtuoso Belt using Meat while TPing and WSing with Champ's Galea + Virtuoso Belt.

You accuracy sucks, you should use swift/turban etc, basic DD stuff. Oh and there is no reason to not have capped accuracy in merit.

[Argettio]

Zanshin breaks effective hitrate. Even with capped ACC you still hit more than you would w/o Zanshin, namely (5*.45*.95)% more.

No....

@ capped acc:

You swing 500 times, miss 25, Zanshin procs on 12 (roughly), you miss 1.

Total swings 512, Total misses 26

486/512 = 95%.