Socialist Agencies Destroying America

[Max™]

Is it?

I preach the gospel of logic, my man, and I am no smarter than anyone else.

I merely made a hobby out of reading and thinking.

[Beckwin]

pretending that you can boil everything human down to mathematical terms of logic is a masturbatory fallacy.

[Max™]

pretending that you can boil everything human down to mathematical terms of logic is a masturbatory fallacy.

Pretending that there is anything of any importance which can not be described logically is insane, as you are essentially stating that NOTHING can be truly known or understood.

Like religion, very human, utterly illogical, completely batshit insane, yet happily it is unimportant except as a safety blanket for ignorance.

[Beckwin]

So give me the mathematical, logical proof for why abortion should be legal. Then I want a proof for the most logical (hence, singular best) way to achieve world peace.

When you're done with that, tell me the mathematical/logical meaning of life.

[Plow]

the real effects of going to war, how policy benefits or detracts from you, how to be a responsible voter.

=

"how to vote for liberals"

Awesome.

[Max™]

So give me the mathematical, logical proof for why abortion should be legal.

Me =/= You,
My rights are an open set of axioms which only exist when tested, and end at your body.

Then I want a proof for the most logical (hence, singular best) way to achieve world peace.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/a...e8aa6af05e.png

When you're done with that, tell me the mathematical/logical meaning of life.

There is none, life has no meaning.

[Beckwin]

Me =/= You,
My rights are an open set of axioms which only exist when tested, and end at your body.

what mathematical theorem proves that? and do other animal species have rights which are an open set of axioms that exist only when tested and end at the body of other members of their species?

[Max™]

You have rights when you claim them.

I am not you, I can only assume you are human from our interaction, and I can infer that you would prefer to be treated in no worse a way than I myself would prefer.

Taking those assumptions, I can not know what your rights are until you state them, and vice versa, as rights are not set in stone, or granted by any outside power, they are obviously unbounded until otherwise found.

Not knowing what is going on inside of your mind, I can only determine that any claims that I may make about the world outside each of us, they are only as valid as we can agree them to be.

My rights will interfere with yours to some extent, but just as I can not be in the same location as you, I can not have rights over you.

I am not you.

You are one entity stating it's existence and rights, I am one entity stating my existence and rights.

We are not the same entity, so Me =/= You.

My rights only exist as a statement about how I interact with the world and predict it will interact with me, I can not predict your internal experiences, but I can infer you have them, so my rights do not extend past the boundary of your body.

I do not own you, you do not own me, you have no rights over me either.

I am not you.


Other animals have rights in theory, but they do not state them except in very simple primal ways.

The right to eat impairs another animals right to live, but as the other animal was unable to communicate that right effectively, it became irrelevant.


We are able to communicate, I am able to say "do not eat me", and if that fails, I can resort to tooth and nail, as all other animals do.

[Max™]

Logic is at the root of Mathematics.

Mathematics is a collection of everything that does not contradict itself.


Incidentally, that equation is the one for determining escape velocity, we will jostle each other and interfere with the perceived rights of others until we uncork the bottle and spread out into space.

The statement about no meaning is one which brings me peace of mind, a sense of freedom.


If you want a meaning for life, you can choose to have one, but there was not one imposed on you beforehand, life just is. Enjoy it.

[Beckwin]

The right to eat impairs another animals right to live, but as the other animal was unable to communicate that right effectively, it became irrelevant.

ah, so math/science/logic says that the deaf+mute+paralyzed have irrelevant rights.

[Max™]

ah, so math/science/logic says that the deaf+mute+paralyzed have irrelevant rights.

Your inference fails in one sense.

They can not claim them, but you can not claim their rights either.


You can only treat them as you would expect to be treated in that situation.

As a collection of individuals form a society, they agree on rules for such situations, caring for the elderly, the infirm, the crippled.


Whether or not you think abortion is wrong does not matter, you are not that woman. Your rights end at her body, just as her rights end at yours.


You do not own anyone else, if you can get the rest of society to agree that abortion is bad, that is fine, but it is still not your right, or societies right to make that decision.

It's her body, the ONLY person who has ANY say in this situation besides the woman, is the person who contributed to the pregnancy... and in fairness, that say would roughly amount to the scale of the contribution.


So a single cell's worth of voting rights vs the 100 million or so of the mothers cells.


I'd say that is enough to make it proper for the father to EXPRESS HIS OPINION on the subject... but ultimately, it is not his body, and until the embryo could even reasonably begin to consider functioning on it's own, it is not a living being, it is an extension of it's mothers body.

It is still a sticky situation as we can't say for sure when awareness begins, and I would argue that once we can say for sure when a baby "wakes up" inside the womb, it is wrong to abort at that point.

A 9 week old embryo barely has a differentiation between it's head and the rest of it's body yet, it is pretty hard to argue that is an aware being yet.


Plus, the ONLY reason this stupid issue comes up, is the ignorant idea that there is some magical spark which occurs at conception. That a soul is imparted or some stupid mumbo jumbo.


The closest thing we have to a soul is awareness, when it is aware, it can express it's rights. Simple enough, you'd think, though you'll argue it for silly reasons.

I'll be back later, going to sleep for now.

[Beckwin]

I would argue that once we can say for sure when a baby "wakes up" inside the womb, it is wrong to abort at that point.

and what fundamental concepts of math/logic back up that argument? or for that matter, anything else you've said?

[Max™]

Identity
Exclusion

a = a
If a = b, and b = c, then a = c
etc, etc, etc

I am not you.

I can not logically claim that I have rights over you, you can distinguish that you are over there and I am somewhere else.

How can you have rights over something at all?

You claim them.

I argue your claim, we can fight about it, you kill me, I kill you, either way one of us stops existing.

Or

I argue your claim, we discuss it and you argue my claim, we reach a logical conclusion which ultimately includes the boundary of our claims as an inference.


I say "you are me", you say "no I am not", or "yes I am".

Either way I can tell that my statement has no truth value, You =/= Me, because I did not say what you did.

I say "I have rights over you", you say "no you do not", or "yes you do".

Either way, until I exercise them, or you agree to them, they are irrelevant.


Are we going to start cracking each others skulls open?


If not, then logically my rights end where yours begin.

Your rights begin at you, don't they?

[Beckwin]

I argue your claim, we can fight about it, you kill me, I kill you, either way one of us stops existing.

Which is why slavery never existed.

Which is why there are hierarchies among other species of animals.

[Beckwin]

Basically, I'm saying stop trying to apply fundamental math principles to human matters that are incredibly subjective and/or irrational (whereas math is not subjective)

[Max™]

You aren't proving or disproving my point.


Do your rights begin at you?


It's logic that truly makes us able to say we are more than just animals.


While we are definitely animals, we can reason, my cat does not reason.

He sees a mouse, he says "hey, I've got the right to kill you", the mouse says "no you don't!" by running away.

Either we are nothing but animals, and you are correct...

or

We are more than just animals, and I have made my point.

[Beckwin]

Rights beginning and ending are completely subjective human creations/social constructs that lie outside the scope of the math you use to talk about gravitational pulls and exit velocities.

[Max™]

You are deliberately ignoring logical reasoning, so I will now sing at you as I do my cat, since I was apparently mistaken in assuming you to be a human.


Would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
Or would you rather be a mule?

A mule is an animal with long funny ears
Kicks up at anything he hears
His back is brawny and his brain is weak
He's just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
And by the way, if you hate to go to school
You may grow up to be a mule

Or would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
Or would you rather be a pig?

A pig is an animal with dirt on his face
His shoes are a terrible disgrace
He ain't got no manners when he eats his food
He's fat and lazy and extremely rude
But if you don't care a feather or a fig
You may grow up to be a pig

Or would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
Or would you rather be a fish?

A fish won't do anything, but swim in a brook
He can't write his name or read a book
And to fool the people is his only thought
And though he's slippery, he still gets caught
But then if that sort of life is what you wish
You may grow up to be a fish

And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo
Every day you meet quite a few
So you see it's all up to you
You can be better than you are
You could be swingin' on a star

[Beckwin]

I'm ignoring mathematical logic because I disagree with you.

Thank you for telling me, Prophet Max of the Great Maths.

[Plow]

I have a bigass gun, you don't, logically I have rights over you.


What is a right expressed mathematically?

What rights does one have?

What about 42?

I actually went to an anarchist meet up the other week back. After the civil exchange of ideas(Some drunk guy at the bar even joined in with us) we burned down the whole town and road out on motorcycles with clubs and knives. Shit was so badass.

Anarchy organizations are awesome.