White Collar

[Boyiee]

I loved season 1 and most of season 2. Since then the show has been pretty tough for me to watch and I really only watch it when I catch a rerun of it at work.

[hey]

and considering the shit they've been through you'd think the benefit of the doubt wouldn't be too much to ask.

I would not think that, considering Niel is a conman, who has been conning peter since day 1.

[kuronosan]

I would not think that, considering Niel is a conman, who has been conning peter since day 1.

I don't think you and I are watching the same show.

[Elcura]

I don't think anyone is watching what hey is.

Latest episode was fun, I guess they're spending a bit more time with side characters now. First Diane, now Mozzie, and I think they already did Clinton? Though what I'm remembering wasn't entirely focused around him so maybe they'll do something else.

Seriously though, let's get to the Sam stuff lol

[hey]

Something something, billion dollar submarine treasure, something something robbing someone he was supposed to prevent from being robbed, something something tricking peter into giving him everything he wanted.

[Tajin]

Where can I download this show?

[Elcura]

Something something, billion dollar submarine treasure, something something robbing someone he was supposed to prevent from being robbed, something something tricking peter into giving him everything he wanted.

Let's recap what Neil actually has. Tracking Anklet, Mozzie, Joan, Peter and the FBI. Neil hasn't gotten shit from conning Peter other than trouble and pain. Everything he ever wanted? I'm sure. The whole point of this season (and a few episode past that) is that Neil wanted his life at the FBI and in New York back. He's gotten that, and now the show is backpedaling Neil's development because it'll make the show last longer? It sucks.

[hey]

Let's recap what Neil actually has. Tracking Anklet, Mozzie, Joan, Peter and the FBI. Neil hasn't gotten shit from conning Peter other than trouble and pain. Everything he ever wanted? I'm sure. The whole point of this season (and a few episode past that) is that Neil wanted his life at the FBI and in New York back. He's gotten that, and now the show is backpedaling Neil's development because it'll make the show last longer? It sucks.

Wanting to be back in new york, working for the fbi does not mean he wants to be a good guy.

[Elcura]

Wanting to be back in new york, working for the fbi does not mean he wants to be a good guy.

No, it's just the rest of the show that establishes that Neil is trying to be good. He's had many chances to screw Peter over and he still makes the effort (at the risk of his own life, not characteristic of bad guys but hey, maybe Neil is more complicated than any of us realise) to save Peter or catch the criminal. You could say he's an adrenaline junkie who throws himself into danger for the rush, but clearly someone who values the good things in life wouldn't purposely endanger himself for a rush.

Fuck, this show is based on the fact that Neil is trying to be good. Perhaps you should stop watching if you fail to realise this. And yes, Neil has made mistakes and stupid choices that have hurt Peter and the people aruond him, but if he didn't care he wouldn't try to rectify it. He needs to, otherwise where's the show?

[hey]

And yes, Neil has made mistakes and stupid choices that have hurt Peter and the people aruond him, but if he didn't care he wouldn't try to rectify it.

When did i say he didn't care? He obviously cares.

Neil isn't a one dimensional character that wants to be purely good or purely evil. He wants to work with peter. He likes peter, and all the other people he works with. He wants to continue doing so. However, he also does not want to completely give up on his past life. He doesn't want to jeaoperdize his current situation, but if he thinks the risk is minimal/nonexistant, he has no problem manipulating people to get what he wants. For example, he clearly manipulated peter into giving him the info. He knew peter was there at the exchange, and that if he didn't take it, she would be arrested with it, and thus peter would get it. Therefore, he concluded that his best chance was to make peter think he deserves it, and shouldn't be arrested for stealing the art. And what do you know? It worked; he didn't suspect a thing until later.

Fuck, this show is based on the fact that Neil is trying to be good.

Trying? Sure. Succeeding? Well...not entirely.

[Elcura]

For example, he clearly manipulated peter into giving him the info. He knew peter was there at the exchange, and that if he didn't take it, she would be arrested with it, and thus peter would get it. Therefore, he concluded that his best chance was to make peter think he deserves it, and shouldn't be arrested for stealing the art. And what do you know? It worked; he didn't suspect a thing until later.

Yeah, and clearly I dislike this direction because it's arbitrary and stupid. It doesn't make Neil a more complicated character, it just showcases poor writing.

Neil is only using his past life as a means to an end, and I thought this episode was to showcase that Neil could display patience and trust Peter to come through for him. Making it seem like a long-winded con was just weak and was pulled entirely out of thin air. If it wasn't for that one scene with Peter at the end, it might have been a nice development and breakthrough. You're right about Neil, but the situation you're defending is stupid and if they wanted to bring this dynamic back they could've put some effort into it.

[Iono]

I thought the scene with Peter was all speculation that Neil planned it in the first place?

I think it's mostly Neil trying to fight his own demons, and Peter trying to figure out if Neil can actually fight his demons? Basically can people actually change or not.

[Laugana]

If it wasn't for that one scene with Peter at the end, it might have been a nice development and breakthrough. You're right about Neil, but the situation you're defending is stupid and if they wanted to bring this dynamic back they could've put some effort into it.

Totally agree here. They were working together for a common goal (the information in the marshall's office) and the writers had to taint it by making us think Neal had planned it all along. And maybe he did, but we'll never know, unless it's a plot point later on.

[hey]

Totally agree here. They were working together for a common goal (the information in the marshall's office) and the writers had to taint it by making us think Neal had planned it all along. And maybe he did, but we'll never know, unless it's a plot point later on.

Niel isn't retarded, he wouldn't have done it without a plan that included how to not go to jail after he was inevitably caught.

[Laugana]

Yeah but the way it was presented to the audience, ie Neal's scheme, didn't show that part, so we're now meant to doubt him. I want the guy to redeem himself one day but the show won't let him.

[Elcura]

You keep trying to justify the actions of crappy writing. We know logically what they showed us, and what they wanted to imply and despite all that it was weak. Unless there's a lingering thread that is pulled from this later on it'll just be total waste (and even if they do I'll still be on the fence until they do something good with it).

[hey]

despite all that it was weak.

Perhaps, but Peter not trusting Niel still makes perfect sense. Maybe they could have done it better, but the fact is, there's no way in hell Niel would have done this and not planned the entire thing from the start, including how to deal with Peter after he got caught.

[Elcura]

Perhaps, but Peter not trusting Niel still makes perfect sense.

It's not perfect sense, and that little scene with Peter doesn't justify it. It was a stretch, a long ass stretch, and it didn't work. Even Neil's planning is speculation, so you can't even factually say this was intended because there was no lead up, no mention, no nothing until the end (so I can't buy that Neil planned this because I would need to believe in the situation in the first place - I don't). It's like someone came into the writers room at the last minute and just fucked up the ending lol.

Not doubting that Neil has that level of intelligence, planning and execution under his belt, but with no evidence it's just unbelievable. And I'm saying this after the most recent episode.

[hey]

I find it much harder to believe that Niel would walk into a Museum he is supposed to be protecting, knowing full well the fbi would know he was there (and that he's a convicted art thief), hide from the cameras the entire time, and steal some art work, all without having a plan.

Niel is not so stupid that he wouldn't plan for getting caught, when it's so obvious he couldn't possibly get away with it.

[Elcura]

I find it much harder to believe that Niel would walk into a Museum he is supposed to be protecting, knowing full well the fbi would know he was there (and that he's a convicted art thief), hide from the cameras the entire time, and steal some art work, all without having a plan.

Niel is not so stupid that he wouldn't plan for getting caught, when it's so obvious he couldn't possibly get away with it.

Considering the way it played out, Neil didn't need to have a plan. That's the point, he did the crime because he was being blackmailed and when offered the information he rejected it. He called Peter straight away who had figured out Neil was up to something and the two got over Neil's crime and their bond gets stronger (at least for 5 minutes). That was supposed to be redemption, hell, even gratitude to Peter for getting his life back (and risking his life/job and future to do so in the process), so Peter doubting Neil comes from a weird place also which would've been justified 2 seasons ago.

He didn't need to do anything as a back up plan, it was unnecessary to even plant that shadow of doubt so soon. It would've been a lot better to let it play out and maybe reference it later (or even build on it so the fallout is better). What we got was the lazy version.