Metatron Torment Aftermath

[Byrthnoth]

As it looks right now, Bravura + Metatron is definitely a meleeburn friendly combination. Evasion Down procs and substantial Defense Down from the WS itself = Bardvura's songs hit your entire LS.

It will be nice to know if the Defense Down from Metatron stacks with other things, as it is supposedly almost as potent as Angon. At some point things almost have to not stack or have to be applied in series or we'd just end up with too many Defense Down abilities and be able to meleeburn anything.

I don't know if it gets the pDIF bonus of other one-hit WSs (I suspect so?) but Metatron isn't exactly a WS to mess with either. It's not quite a 300TP Steel Cyclone every 100TP, but it is better than a 300TP Gekko pre-Overwhelm (-15% STR mod + better STR gear access + a higher damage weapon + .25 fTP). With enough Attack you can probably pump it up over 1400 without a DA on VT-IT stuff. The downside is that you (probably) don't get the benefit of your own WS's additional effect.

[Andradi]

I don't know if it gets the pDIF bonus of other one-hit WSs (I suspect so?)

The boost Y/G/K/Steel Cyclone/Spinning Slash/Ground Strike etc get?

Fairly sure none of the relic WSes get that.

[Argettio]

The boost Y/G/K/Steel Cyclone/Spinning Slash/Ground Strike etc get?

Fairly sure none of the relic WSes get that.

AFAIK this is correct, which is why most of the Relic WS are heavy affect by attack.

[Shinryuu]

I don't get why people are saying Metatron's sacrificing damage. It's 2.85 w/ gorget and KJ w/ gorget is 3.1, with a lesser STR mod than MT is. Also, from Yoichi tests I think I remember that the additional effect takes effect during the WS (e.g. your own Metatron gets boosted by the defense down).

MT also supposedly gains an ACC boost from being one hit (something KJ doesn't get) and therefore I'd say MS at least beats KJ. KJ beats RR when your critrate can't be sufficiently boosted by DEX, which is in any 'serious' situation. Therefore, w/ Bravura you can alternate RR and MT depending on situation. You're not giving up 300 damage either way.

[Neoex]

moved post

[Neoex]

As it looks right now, Bravura + Metatron is definitely a meleeburn friendly combination. Evasion Down procs and substantial Defense Down from the WS itself = Bardvura's songs hit your entire LS.

It will be nice to know if the Defense Down from Metatron stacks with other things, as it is supposedly almost as potent as Angon. At some point things almost have to not stack or have to be applied in series or we'd just end up with too many Defense Down abilities and be able to meleeburn anything.

I don't know if it gets the pDIF bonus of other one-hit WSs (I suspect so?) but Metatron isn't exactly a WS to mess with either. It's not quite a 300TP Steel Cyclone every 100TP, but it is better than a 300TP Gekko pre-Overwhelm (-15% STR mod + better STR gear access + a higher damage weapon + .25 fTP). With enough Attack you can probably pump it up over 1400 without a DA on VT-IT stuff. The downside is that you (probably) don't get the benefit of your own WS's additional effect.

As far as being as potent as Angon, I am saying no way, I obviously have not done any specific testing, but with Angon numbers really go up, after MT, theres just not that much difference, I am saying 10% max, the true question is the stacking. imo

1400 without DA, is not happening. on ie Colibri, maybe with a yellow curry bun, 2xminuet and chaos roll. With normal buffs and mithkabob your lookin at 900-1100 and 1200-1500 with DA. I have never hit a 2000+ MT and hit plenty RR and KJ over 2k.

[Sehrahin]

Metatron defense down doesn't proc 100%.

[Masamune]

Test details for you to say this conclusion please?

because the break line of WSs "procs" 100% but then are subject to resist up to fully resisted, ie 0% ?

big difference imo between saying "its random not 100% procing" and "100% proc but can be resisted".

[Massimo]

Also, from Yoichi tests I think I remember that the additional effect takes effect during the WS (e.g. your own Metatron gets boosted by the defense down).

I don't think this is correct, sadly. When you ready MT, you get the DMG-20% bonus - same as when you ready Namas, you get the RAcc bonus - so those apply on weaponskills.

However, like Apoc, Bravura has 3 'additional effects': EVA down, DEF down and DMG taken. EVA down procs on normal hits, DEF down procs after the WS lands and DMG taken procs when you ready the WS. With Apoc, blind procs on regular hits, Drain procs after the WS lands (which is why you can cure yourself up from a Souleater'd WS) and Haste is applied when you ready your WS.

I'd love to be proved wrong though, as it would make Bravura even better.

[Sehrahin]

When you land Metatron you will get "XXX defense down wears off" after 1 minute if it lands, but I have tested to WS a mob and waited over 5min and did not get the wears off message.

[Sehrahin]

Oh and the 1 minute duration is counted when you ready the WS.

Meaning

[02:07:33]Sehrahin readies Metatron Torment.

[02:07:37]Sehrahin uses Metatron Torment.

[02:07:37]The Antican Secutor takes 1109 points of damage.

____________________

[02:08:33]The Antican Secutor's Defense Down effect wears off.

[Byrthnoth]

It's possible the additional effect is elemental (somewhat like the Breaks). Wind is a likely target (Acid Bolts, Armor Break), but it could also be Lightning (Full Break) or Light (Dia). Or something completely different!

For the amount of Def Down from Metatron, I was just going by the only data I see out there (-18.5% on otherwiki).

For the potential WS damage, I was assuming a near-perfect WS set (+~74 STR) on an Elvaan with 5 STR merits (82STR) fighting something with less than 80 VIT (lots of stuff). (77 + 19 + 99) = D195.
195*2.75(non-crit capped pDIF for 2H weapon user via Masa's tests)*2.85(fTP+.1) = 1528

I knew Catastrophe was rather infamous for being very Attack based to the point where people suspected it has an innate attack penalty, but I didn't realize that was the case for Metatron too. Easiest relic buff would just be to give them the cRatio bonus. At least they get the first hit Acc bonus still. . . right? >.>

[BerenTebogo]

All relic WS benefit highly from ATT (byrnie +1 with kaiten, bando for metsu, stealing JoLs boost for MS etc) I just don't think anyone here can say exactly how much or specifically what it is that ATT does for them that it doesn't do for other WS.

It's one of those things where mermans / brutal sounds ridiculously silly for MT on paper but...maybe it isn't?

[Max™]

Ooh, finally got your Abby, grats slut!

Most WSes get huge bumps from Att due to the high base damages involved.

All relic weapons have silly high base damages, particularly the str mod wses (Kaiten, MS, MT ftw), but they don't get the same artificial attack boost as gekko and shit.

They are great WSes until you compare them to critting/pDif boosted WSes which are just so ridiculously strong you wonder why SE didn't give some form of those to relic wses.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, this just made me go look at gear options for Metatron. It's a little bit hard to choose what to wear on WAR that way. I came up with the following potential swap outs:
E.body for Ares Cuirass (15 Acc for 2 STR and 9 Atk)
Bomblet for Bomb Core (6 Acc/Atk for 12 Atk)
Triumph Earring for Fenrir's during the day (2 STR for 10 Atk)
Ares Flanchard for N.legs (6 STR and 2% DA for 20 Atk and 1-2 Acc)
Warrior's Stone for Swordbelt +1 (5 STR for 12 Atk)
Vampire Earring for Merman's at night (4 STR for 6 Atk >.>)

I figured that anything near a 1:1 ratios of ATK:STR probably wasn't worth it, so:
Heca Leggings +1 are solid and staying. Next best that I see is Ares's Leggings (7 Atk)
Heca Cap is solid and staying. Next best is Ares's Mask (12Atk).
Gorget is obviously staying.
Rajas and Triumph are staying.
Cerb Mantle +1 is staying.
Alkys are staying. Next best is Warrior's Mufflers +1 (14 Atk)

If you sacrifice too much Acc and don't have much chance of landing the DA, it might be worth swapping Brutal out for something else.

[BerenTebogo]

God that gear just sounds....terrible.

[Max™]

Brav/Pole/_/Core
Nhead/Gorget/Brutal/augmented Str +2 Att +5 pimp shit like Bison has
Ares/Alky's/Flame/Rajas
Cerb +1/Sword +1/Nlegs/Nfeet +1

Hard to think of many places to go for more att than you lose from the str swap.

[Byrthnoth]

I'd probably do the top three. It's a huge Acc hit (~28?) but you'd gain 31 base Atk. I'd probably sacrifice Ares's Flanchard too. If you do the math, Accuracy really isn't worth that much on Metatron even with a high DA rate, so DA isn't worth that much once you have no accuracy. Might even be worth using a Merman's over Brutal.

Like:
95% Hit rate * 1fTP*.05 DA rate from Brutal = .0475 effective boost in fTP assuming capped accuracy for the DA. ([2.85+.0475]/2.85 = 1.66% increase)
If you toss 30 Acc and drop to 80% Hit rate, it's a .04 increase in fTP (1.5%)
It mins out at a .01 increase in fTP when you have 20% Hit rate. (.3%)

Overall, with a 24% DA rate and capped Accuracy, DA effectively contributes a .228 fTP bonus to the WS, or 8%. With 50% Hit rate it contributes .12fTP or 4.2% WS damage. At 20% Hit rate it contributes .048fTP bonus to the WS, or 1.7% WS damage.

So dropping 2% DA decreases your Metatron damage, but not really by much. At most, it is worth 0.67% WS damage, and as you sacrifice Acc that amount goes down.

[Masamune]

For the potential WS damage, I was assuming a near-perfect WS set (+~74 STR) on an Elvaan with 5 STR merits (82STR) fighting something with less than 80 VIT (lots of stuff). (77 + 19 + 99) = D195.
195*2.75(non-crit capped pDIF for 2H weapon user via Masa's tests)*2.85(fTP+.1) = 1528

I'm very interested if a Bravura user could post a SS proving this value, and even more interested if can see a SS with a value HIGHER than this value (in that case please post also on which mob/area and yur str/attack/tp return).

[BerenTebogo]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...b_subligar.jpg

vs.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...yu_haidate.png

Throw on Ares and get chaos + 1 march 1 min. Problem solved. If you're willing to go super wonky on gear, you already have a relic, get some red curry buns.