Metatron Torment Aftermath

[Neoex]

I'm very interested if a Bravura user could post a SS proving this value, and even more interested if can see a SS with a value HIGHER than this value (in that case please post also on which mob/area and yur str/attack/tp return).

I can tell you I have never hit a NON-DA MT near that high. hume + 67 STR + 5 merits.

edit:
Possible with 2x minuet, chaos roll, red curry bun maybe.

I use red curry bun in Einherjar, but usually its MAR/MAR, no cor. I think my attack gets up into the 700s with just berserk.

[Byrthnoth]

Okay, forgot about those. It's still a 7-8 Atk difference between them, but they're probably better (~2% damage boost via STR mod).

As far as the Attack testing, Bow or Gun relics would have the easiest time because they know their Atk is capped when they always shoot for the same amount. So if they're shooting for a constant value and Namas-ing in the same gear for a variable value then there is a RAtk penalty on Namas.

[Shinryuu]

I don't think relic WSs are especially boosted by ATK moreso than regular weaponskills w/o pDIF boost (Gekko for direct boost, Raging Rush via crits) without any proof. It's a couple of things (taking MT for example):

- No pDIF boost (direct or crits)
- High DMG weapon and high mods resulting in a large DMG pool already

Adding more DMG via STR or elsewhere does not result in a very large percentual increase, whereas a pDIF boost via the normal means (attack) or an fTP boost (1.0 extra from double attack) do.

This goes for other weaponskills too. The reason attack for WS isn't more popular is because most weaponskills either don't need (Gekko), need less (RR), need other stats (ACC for most weaponskills in general, DEX for crit WS) or because people are simply fucking stupid. I'd use Heca subligar for RR, for instance, on almost every mob.

[BerenTebogo]

You'd have to use cuchu and thunder ring then for RR. Giving up a net 5 STR for 1.25 ATT (if I did the math right, it's early)

Unless you're just disregarding the crit tiers on colibri, or how low the AGI is on most ein/dyn mobs, which would be stupider than using heca subligar.

[Shinryuu]

What, me? I can easily spare the loss in DEX vs. Colibri in favor of the attack. I'd simply gain attack.

[BerenTebogo]

Post your gear then. There is virtually no way that Heca sub is going to be better than Byakko's or Ares.

Edit: For comparison Ares is 6STR 4 ATT 2 DA so if you're saying that < 16 ATT I don't even know what to tell you.

Edit 2: for reference, this is 118 DEX. If you're pulling the "i'm a mithra" card don't make blanket statements. Heca subligar sucks for most people for WAR and should not be considered.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...026_130434.jpg

[Thorny]

Mithra, 5/5 dex merits, NQ heca, minuet over triumph and cuch over cerb iirc

Also, NQ adaberk?

[BerenTebogo]

Well, if that's the case there's a few things that could be counted as "if this applies to you, don't say people are stupid for not using heca subligar" in what you described.

Cerb or Forager's alone and other options are better overall.

[Therin]

I find it funny that people still use the "vs. Colibri" argument, as if the process of continually upgrading your character is simply a means of arriving to the ultimate goal of meriting at that camp.

At level 75, in the real world, what you learn from that camp is rarely admissible. Case in point: A WAR parsing 23.02% critical hit rate at birds and then moving to a CoP Dynamis zone and dropping to 16.40%, making his 122 DEX Raging Rush set suddenly subpar (I'm talking about myself here, if you didn't realize).

[BerenTebogo]

There's only so much to do in this game. I, personally, would rather kill another 100,000,000 colibri before I ever set foot in another dynamis zone ever again.

If all you do is CoP dyn and HNM then why the fuck are you playing WAR anyways? Level BLM and be useful.

WAR is a merit and melee burn job. It's useful in some situations like salvage and other events but it's outshined in most non-melee burn situations by more useful jobs. VS. Colibri when you're a DD job is a fantastic comparison. Pink fluffy birds are a hell of a lot more entertaining than camping kings, that's for sure.

Don't be retarded Therin, I like you but your logic is about as sharp as the shit I took this morning. What one person enjoys in FFXI =/= universal fact.

[Therin]

There's only so much to do in this game. I, personally, would rather kill another 100,000,000 colibri before I ever set foot in another dynamis zone ever again.

If all you do is CoP dyn and HNM then why the fuck are you playing WAR anyways? Level BLM and be useful.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that the mobs in CoP Dynamis zones are roughly equivalent to more important mobs elsewhere. My statements are legitimate even if you're just moving over to Mamool, where you can only cap critical hit rate on 2-3 of the 6 types that you fight.

It's not a matter of what one person enjoys, it's a matter of setting your standard correctly. If you know that 118 DEX in your RR set caps your critical hit rate on Greater Colibri, then of course you should use that set ON Greater Colibri. But you better not be using those Haidate when you go up against something a lot higher level, when Ares's Flanchard or even WAR AF2 would produce better results. Shit is situational.

(For the record, I don't even use Raging Rush anymore, except to test it out. As an Elvaan is nigh impossible to hit 25%+ critical hit rate on anything worth fighting, which is the sweet spot where it starts to overtake King's Justice.)

[Shinryuu]

Well, if that's the case there's a few things that could be counted as "if this applies to you, don't say people are stupid for not using heca subligar" in what you described.

Cerb or Forager's alone and other options are better overall.

I personally would use Heca over Haidate on Colibri.

In general, Heca subligar beats Byakko's haidate for RR, and Colibri are the exception for most.

Also Thorny I use Amemet+1 in WS. I'd need Heca cap or Adaberk if I got Heca subligar to keep DEX the same while maintaining an attack mantle but Sath here probably has all Heca mentioned plus Adaberk (and he explained why he NQed it, pay attention).

[BerenTebogo]

I don't think it's a stretch that the mobs in CoP Dynamis zones are roughly equivalent to more important mobs elsewhere. My statements are legitimate even if you're just moving over to Mamool, where you can only cap critical hit rate on 2-3 of the 6 types that you fight.

It's not a matter of what one person enjoys, it's a matter of setting your standard correctly. If you know that 118 DEX in your RR set caps your critical hit rate on Greater Colibri, then of course you should use that set ON Greater Colibri. But you better not be using those Haidate when you go up against something a lot higher level, when Ares's Flanchard or even WAR AF2 would produce better results. Shit is situational.

And I said ares > byakko already. Pay attention comment is seconded. Heca is still not a good choice in my opinion since if you can't hit crit cap then Hachiryu is a better choice.

If you honestly have nothing better than heca legs for non-colibri then by all means use them. But again, I wouldn't say it's stupid that people not use heca legs. Even just account for the extra ACC bonus you get from haidate can allow you more freedom in your other gear choices.

ATT+20 is nice but it isn't as good as other options imo.

[BerenTebogo]

I'll double post here, if you're even arguing these facts you should have 5-6 gear sets for every WS you do and you should be using spellcast to maximize your efficiency.

If you're not the argument is over, period. The minimal differences in damage we're talking about are easily overshadowed by the differences in having an aggressor up / down set and different sets auto-checked by what mob you're fighting at whatever camp you're at or what events you're doing.

Period, end of discussion.

Edit: This is more at Therin.

[Sehrahin]

I do think I saw a post your gear and argue about thread somewhere >.>

The damage of metatron is about the only thing that was known and most (well me) already knew that metatron is affected alot by attack. Which I have tried out as well with various gear sets but it's far from completed, since I haven't fought that many high level mobs since I got it.

I did notice now that when I was skimming the logs from Ixion now. There was only once where I got "Defense down effect wears off".

[xx:08:37]Sehrahin readies Metatron Torment.

[xx:10:38]Dark Ixion's Defense Down effect wears off.

Which means my previous statement that it last 1 minute was wrong, since it lasted 2minutes on DI. But then again it only landed once from what I could see, I could have been out of range at times. It's kind of odd that if would last 2 minutes on DI and only 1 minute on a too weak antica.

So can we leave the gear argument now..

[BerenTebogo]

TP effect, like other WS, could be dependent on the TP used with WS.

Was the 2 minute DEF- with 300tp?

[Sehrahin]

I don't think it was, I think I did tests with various TP and defense down length. Will redo it.

[Byrthnoth]

I can attest that the breaks definitely last differing amounts depending how much TP you have when you use them. I don't remember why exactly, but I was using Full Break on a wall in Campaign over and over at 100 to 300TP, and at 300TP it lasted a really long time.

[BerenTebogo]

When I tested kamu when it first came out I got extremely similar results. The vast majority of the durations were 1 minute but I had some resists and sometimes it would stay on for over 1 minute.

I never could get an explanation for it so I don't know if you'll get one here aside from maybe mob affinity or some shit? Even that is just a guess.

[Shinryuu]

Would be funny if it's mob affinity. I can see the slogans:
"Bravura: beastly in more than one way"