Faith vs Spharai Parse data? Anyone have?

[pchan]

Any overflow now is simply more melee damage. There'll be 'underflow' too (getting TP faster than expected rate). You calculated the average and that's the important part.

No. The melee damage remains constant wether you get lossy TP or not. Every 413 delay you do a round no matter what, this remains constant.

[Gtype954]

Ok, last round, because this is going in circles:
Lossy TP puts the item in question at a disadvantage because you wind up wasting needless TP, and this wasted TP could have been extra WS's, right? So it lowers Faith's max potential. Ok, that I agree and understand.

Tell me again though, why does Lossy TP factor in when Faith's already parse higher than Destroyers? On a job whos core damage comes from spamming WS's, I'd understand and agree, which is why Hagun is amazing, but mnk isnt that kinda job. Its overall melee damage is usually on par to, or even excels over, its WS damage, so its not like you're rotting potential damage or severly hindering yourself.

Whenever I get over 100% TP from gear swapping, looking at a mithra's ass, scrolling up on the chat log to see that 3000 dmg steel cyclone, w/e the hell i'm doing that I wasn't paying attention to my TP and it somehow got to 200% on faiths.... I would footwork and Dragon kick with that TP. The TP doesn't go to waste unless you frequently daydream and consistantly hold TP when your footwork timer is down. Dragon kicks can do upwards to 1700 dmg on greater colibre and should always be used whenever your footwork timer is up imo.

If you got the extra TP for whatever reason, use it on a dragon kick or howling fist and not on an asuran fists. Its as simple as that.
Alot of ppl like to whoosh me... so for the above reference about doing 3k steel cyclones and looking at mithra's asses... those were jokes obviously, as I have to point that out to slow people.

[willriker]

so, which is better? faith or spharai?

[Ratatapa]

tropical punches

[Appie]

What's the proc rate on tripple damage . I assumed 5%.

Fuck if I know honestly, never tested it and normal parses aren't very helpfull with their "low dmg that triple proc'd and look like a normal melee hit" at one end of the spectrum and "omgwtfbbq triple dmg that would be a normal crit" at the other end. The latter and the sick triple dmg on a crit hit are the only ones easy to notice, everything else would involve ronfaure bunnies? A whole lot of them? From what I can tell, 3-5% seems accurate, but loleyeballing?

[Thunder]

So it lowers Faith's max potential. Ok, that I agree and understand.

This is ridiculous. Do you understand? Because you sure were getting your rocks off earlier, you know, here:

Vodou, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Holy shit, fuck off with the lossy TP bullshit, seriously, please, drop it. Its not a counter argument, it never was.

You went on to ramble about how faiths, destroyers, and even KC has the amount of lossy tp. Back out, save some face, let the people who are really capable of discussing math behind faiths/destroyers/spharai come to the conclusion of which is best.

Tell me again though, why does Lossy TP factor in

Again, lossy tp is the smallest variable between the two weapons when calculating the results and it probably wont be the deciding factor. It was just brought up because calculations made earlier ignored it. And really, why even try and math it out if you're going to skip shit along the way?

[Vodou]

Fuck if I know honestly, never tested it and normal parses aren't very helpfull with their "low dmg that triple proc'd and look like a normal melee hit" at one end of the spectrum and "omgwtfbbq triple dmg that would be a normal crit" at the other end. The latter and the sick triple dmg on a crit hit are the only ones easy to notice, everything else would involve ronfaure bunnies? A whole lot of them? From what I can tell, 3-5% seems accurate, but loleyeballing?

There is another thread on this proc rate atm, which I might post to on Spharai if I get some "acceptable" data. 2.5% is a very likely answer, but without firm tests in sufficient numbers, it's just a guess.

[Appie]

Yeah, just noticed that topic.

[Shinryuu]

Personally waiting on the Spharai part of that topic to gain some more insight, after which I can at least make a proper, realistic hypothetical and state which factors that may change are in favor of either weapon.

[chiyio]

This is ridiculous. Do you understand? Because you sure were getting your rocks off earlier, you know, here:

Way to read my posts, really, good job. Both my posts clearly stated in relevance to Faith Baghnakhs, and I still stated that Lossy TP is stupid when used in relevance to this weapon.

let the people who are really capable of discussing math behind faiths/destroyers/spharai come to the conclusion of which is best.

Do all the math you want, churn out all the numbers you can, tweak all your variables to bend things to your will, do all you want buddy, go nuts, deliver all the proofs you want via your math, because I've use them both, neck to neck same party, same buffs, same mobs, I consistently parsed higher with Faiths. So unless everyone else slacked when Faiths were on, and went balls to the wall when Destroyers were on, fuck yo math.

[Byrthnoth]

I have absolutely no vested interest in this discussion. My Monk was level 20 on Byrth. I had 0 Far East jobs past 40. But I ran the math.

I get Faiths being better than Destroyers. Also, unless the Atk+20 on Spharai increases average pDIF by more than 10-15%, I get Faiths being better than Spharai. Yeahyeah, I couldn't control for the Counter. You can only have a whole number of attack rounds, so the actual average number of rounds it takes to get 100TP is going to be higher than I calculate. This will affect Faith's WS frequency more and favor Spharai a little, but probably not much overall. Frankly, the math for that is beyond me. I worked it out for a Soboro/Yoichi 5- vs. 6- hit once, but never again!

If anyone wants to play around with the numbers/show me how I'm wrong, I've attached the excel file. I'm sure I forgot something, but if I knew what I forgot then I would have included it. I was writing my equations out and listing my assumptions, but then it was taking too long and I didn't really care that much so I just finished it with less documentation. You should be able to trace out what is what in the last few steps with a little effort.

[Vodou]

I have absolutely no vested interest in this discussion. My Monk was level 20 on Byrth. I had 0 Far East jobs past 40. But I ran the math.

I get Faiths being better than Destroyers. Also, unless the Atk+20 on Spharai increases average pDIF by more than 10-15%, I get Faiths being better than Spharai. Yeahyeah, I couldn't control for the Counter. You can only have a whole number of attack rounds, so the actual average number of rounds it takes to get 100TP is going to be higher than I calculate. This will affect Faith's WS frequency more and favor Spharai a little, but probably not much overall. Frankly, the math for that is beyond me. I worked it out for a Soboro/Yoichi 5- vs. 6- hit once, but never again!

If anyone wants to play around with the numbers/show me how I'm wrong, I've attached the excel file. I'm sure I forgot something, but if I knew what I forgot then I would have included it. I was writing my equations out and listing my assumptions, but then it was taking too long and I didn't really care that much so I just finished it with less documentation. You should be able to trace out what is what in the last few steps with a little effort.

There is a link to Alla on page 1 of this thread. It was done by numerous people who know this shit. It shows Spharai over Faiths. Pchan did the math in THIS thread and it shows Spharai over Faith. Aurik got Spharai and used them over Faiths (except as he said in Ballista).

This horse has been beaten, dead and buried. If you want to discuss, we don't need another set of math numbers. Just explain where the Alla thread or Pchans numbers are wrong.

[Thunder]

Lossy tp doesn't matter.

Also parses are more accurate than calculated comparisons

Hey, champ. I don't care about which is better and I never discussed it. All you've talked about and all I've discussed with you is if lossy tp is relevant between a weapon that has less of chance of wasted tp and a weapon that has more of a chance of wasted tp.

You still don't get it and it's really embarrassing that you're continuing. Here, if I may, this is the logical reasoning you've shown: "All weapons waste tp so it doesn't matter." So it's safe to assume you'll agree with:"All weapons do damage so the difference between them doesn't matter." Yeah.. that's how dumb you look to the math community.

This is pathetic.. all of my posts talk about why lossy tp is a relevant variable to account for in the math. It's painfully obvious that it is.. are you even arguing with me anymore? Remember, this is if lossy tp affects faiths more than it does destroyers and not which is better.

PS: I think it's been concluded that faiths are better

[chiyio]

Thanks for taking some small parts of my posts out of context to make your point, or whatever that was.

I get the "lossy" tp importance when doing the actual math. It changes the ratio of melee/ws damage. I'm not arguing about how relevant it is to the actual calculated damage of faith as a stand alone weapon.

What I've argued against, or more really pointed out, is that in the CONTEXT of faith vs destroyers, this slightly higher melee to ws percentage of damage isn't enough to make up the difference in overall damage vs destroyers I've repeatedly observed.

and while it may be "concluded" that faith are better now, the beginning of this thread had a very different tone. Like the times I've claimed this in the past, the band wagon mostly talked about how ridiculous this observation was until other people with actual experience showed up.

We're arguing different things. I'm only talking about "which is better", regardless of slight 100 tp overflow.

just to make it clear once more, in the context of which is better, "lossy" tp makes no difference. In the context of HOW MUCH better I see that, but that's a different question.

I never claimed how much better they were, just that they were better, regardless of certain specific differences between them, "lossy" tp included.

also, to the claim I said they beat relic, I didn't. What I said was basically that given how small an increase over destroyers relic have generally been considered, it seemed very probable to me based on how easily faith beat destroyers.

[Shinryuu]

There is a link to Alla on page 1 of this thread. It was done by numerous people who know this shit. It shows Spharai over Faiths. Pchan did the math in THIS thread and it shows Spharai over Faith. Aurik got Spharai and used them over Faiths (except as he said in Ballista).

This horse has been beaten, dead and buried. If you want to discuss, we don't need another set of math numbers. Just explain where the Alla thread or Pchans numbers are wrong.

You're naming retards and retard websites, go Byrth's real math.

[Starr]

You're naming retards and retard websites, go Byrth's real math.

That's pathetic, as many people who post on BG would tell you (and I haven't been there in years) some of the math posters are great on Alla and however retarded pchan's logic and English are sometimes, his math is fine most the time.

[FailureMidgard]

That's pathetic, as many people who post on BG would tell you (and I haven't been there in years) some of the math posters are great on Alla and however retarded pchan's logic and English are sometimes, his math is fine most the time.

No, math needs to follow logic. All the math is based on logical assumptions. This is why the shit pchan says is NOT accurate so often.

[Starr]

Ok pchan's stuff is retarded a lot of the time too but whatever, do you agree with what he said about Alla?

[CDF]

Not to nitpick maliciously, but the example given of how to compare differences in WS frequency (hits to 100 TP divided by hit rate and average attacks per round) is an example of not accounting for the hits that occur in excess of 100 TP and don't contribute to reaching 100 TP (a.k.a. "lossy TP"), so the WS frequencies you obtain would be overstate the actual (average) frequencies.

[Byrthnoth]

Oh crapz, I thought I replied to this. I avoided looking at other people's math beforehand so that my assumptions wouldn't be influenced and treated the change in pDIF from Attack as the one "unknowable" thing because I haven't seen any pDIF curves post-2H patch/adjustments. If you knew the pDIF equations, you could also handle Crits more elegantly than I did.

Apart from that, here are the weaknesses of the math I did:
1) It overestimates Faith's WS rate because you can only WS after you hit 100TP and you can't have fractional battle rounds. I don't know how to do the probability to make up for this. Last time I did it was comparing a Soboro/Yoichi 5-hit to a Soboro/Yoichi 6-hit, but I basically just listed out all the possibilities and counted when they'd hit 100TP. For obvious reasons I don't want to do that for Faiths. Also, you can't pretend that Spharai don't Over-TP as well. It's just that you're more likely to go over 100% with Faiths. I've included my Yoichi sheet in the attached .zip so people can see what I mean.
2) I'm still unclear how fSTR2 is applied to Kicks. H2H damage supposedly doesn't have a weapon rank, but does that mean it's Rank 0 (cap of +8 fSTR2?) Or Rank -1? (cap of +7 to fSTR2?) It doesn't matter much because kick rate doesn't change between the two cases, but I'm just curious.
3) Is kick rate 17.5% (Like the guy on Alla said) or is it 15% with 5/5 merits? Doesn't really matter, but just ftr.
4) Counter will proc more often with Spharai on, but how much more often is a function of how often you're attacked/etc. I didn't know how to handle this, so I ignored it.
5) I assumed a 3 second weaponskill animation delay. When someone gets real numbers for this they should feel free to replace it.
6) Sorry pchan, I didn't really look at your math (or read the rest of this thread). I was just annoyed that people kept bumping it so I threw some math at it and hoped it would go away.

You can edit the variables in the table to see how the change in pDIF would need to change. I looked up a pretty pro MNK build and used its stat values in my document, so the numbers have changed a little since the last version. Overall Spharai comes out looking pretty good in my simulation.

PS. I suspect I forgot to save the changes I made to the Spharai .xls before I zipped it, so v2 is the saved version for sure.