Faith vs Spharai Parse data? Anyone have?

[Lahan]

All I can say is Destroyers are easier to get and cheaper to maintain.

I have a question about faith though. Does it proc the DA on both hands? Does it proc the DA on kicks?

[Falaras]

First I didn't say this was maxed out gear before salvage, second 85% hit rate is not the hit rate for a "maxed ou monk", and third "maxed out" mnk before salvage (which is average now) would be something like :

- hades sainti +1
- turban, pcc, brutal, hollow, tiphia sting
- shura togi+1, N kotes, torx2
- foragers's, BB, byakko, fuma

that's about 385 accuracy, so about 88% hitrate prefocus and 91% with.

If I remember right back then most people did not beleive Hades Sainti+1 to even be good, so we can safely assume hes talking maxed Mnk with Destroyers. Plus hes talking about Faiths and Destroyers, not Hades+1. And yes usukane was released around the same time as bird camp, does that mean everyone instantly got the full set? I worked 6 months for my one piece from the release on.

[Onorgul]

Nowhere does he state that its only 3% hitrate while active

Really? What's 91% minus 88%? I won't expect you to apologize.

[pahnphoenix]

All I can say is Destroyers are easier to get and cheaper to maintain.

I have a question about faith though. Does it proc the DA on both hands? Does it proc the DA on kicks?

proc both hands: yes. proc on kicks: no.

[Cream Soda]

Faiths > destroyers. I use my stones in all competitive parses.

[Lahan]

proc both hands: yes. proc on kicks: no.

thank you.

And I was just reading, if you swing and DA proc's, the faith can still DA that DA
(if I did not confuse you).

That can turn into a whole lot of hits per round right there. That CAN hit 8 swings in 1 round.
Thats nuts.

[Killkenny]

Really? What's 91% minus 88%? I won't expect you to apologize.

You are fucking hilarious, try again.

[Shamaya]

I should apologize for my ignorance on the first page; I thought the consensus was that destroyers were better, but I've fallen victim to the same type of mob that still totes GA over ridill for all situations. Though I disagree that parses alone are sufficient for comparing some of these h2h's.

that's about 385 accuracy, so about 88% hitrate prefocus and 91% with.

I must have misread something as well :/ Just read ver-batim..

You do realize he said maxed gear before usu right? Which also means before Chuchulains, Ancient Torque, and Black Tathlum.

I wouldn't agree with this at all though. For modeling accuracy standards I don't think it's right to assume hades sainti +1, mithra, etc. Because I don't think those are really standards for "maxed out." But I would say maxed out pre f.usu does entail some of these nice items. I would easily get all three of these way long before full usu if I wanted to build a maxed mnk, and I think the same is so for many others.

If the math's been done accurately enough on Faith vs Destroyers, and also on Destroyers vs Spharai, then shouldn't this be easy enough to follow up with Spharai vs Faiths?

using something like,

DPS= 
(TP + WS dmg) / (real average time) =

(Dmg/Round * #Rounds(ws->100) + WSdmg)
/ (wsRate)

For Spharhai, something like

(b.Dmg + fStr)*(pDif*%nonCrit + pDif+1*%crit)*(%NormalHit + %3xProc*3)*SwingVolume[Kicks/d.a.]*%accAvg

would seem about right for melee DoT, ignoring counters

[Corrderio]

/popcorn

[Falaras]

I wouldn't agree with this at all though. For modeling accuracy standards I don't think it's right to assume hades sainti +1, mithra, etc. Because I don't think those are really standards for "maxed out." But I would say maxed out pre f.usu does entail some of these nice items. I would easily get all three of these way long before full usu if I wanted to build a maxed mnk, and I think the same is so for many others.

I don't mean maxed out pre Usukane in the sense that he was maxed but was missing Usukane, I mean hes talking about multiple years ago when even one piece of Usukane was rare, let alone a whole set or some of the specific accuracy pieces. Black Tathlum and such simply did not exist at that time period.

[chiyio]

No. Faiths are neither easily better than destroyers (they are more or less equal), nor are they close to Spharai (much less beating them.) I'm intentionally ignoring the rest of your post.

Ignorance is bliss my man. Turn a blind eye to anything you dont agree with, and you'll always be right

[Tsuko_Asura]

my man

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...Element154.jpg

[Vodou]

Ignorance is bliss my man. Turn a blind eye to anything you dont agree with, and you'll always be right

Pahn was right, and so you repeat basically exactly what he said in his post, but you aren't Pahn and you are late to that party.

My statement was not based upon the link but a sticky in the same forum that the post came from. (I have no problem being called out on my comment. I didn't do the math or read through all the posts in that thread, so I was a bit lazy.)


Your turn....

Since you aren't blind, you will see and reply.

Please explain how faiths beats Spharai in merits (your words). The link you espouse (by inference) refutes your point totally.

Please explain how a "maxed gear mnk" (your words) "spamming sushi" (your words) parses 85% on colibri (your words.) I've already shown how that is much less than reasonable.

[Shinryuu]

A naked, merited MNK with NQ bream sushi parses 77% and 82% hitrate (79.5% average) on the two levels of Colibri and a Mithra parses a bit higher. A Pahluwan body makes a sushi-eating MNK parse higher than 85%.

[CDF]

The problem is that virtue DA should not be assumed to proc on regular DAs (max 7 attacks per round with a kick). It seems the case for Faith is overstated based on this assumption.

[Shinryuu]

Ah, you're right. Faiths are a bit less than 50% straight damage coming from a regular D+9 Delay+113 H2H, then. I'm going to do some math on Faith v. Destroyers sometime soon I guess. Not now though.

[pahnphoenix]

The problem is that virtue DA should not be assumed to proc on regular DAs (max 7 attacks per round with a kick). It seems the case for Faith is overstated based on this assumption.

if by overstated you mean overstated by about 2%~, sure. obviously (i hope...) this won't change the ranking of weapons. faiths don't nudge out destroyers by 1%, they're a solid 5%~ ahead. spharai (and shenlong's) are about 10% ahead.

(edit: incidentally, kinematics's comparison doesn't assume that DAs can be virtue stone DA'd; they aren't exclusive, so you can "TA", but you can't "QA" if you follow-_-;. my drunken post in the same thread--which overstates faiths for an entirely different reason--seems to ignore DA entirely. kinematics's better post that follows still puts them 5%~ better than destroyers though)

[CDF]

Right. I just checked and the assumption was whether virtue DA occurs is independent of whether regular DA occurs.

Actually, Faith could be better than expected. For Fortitude Axe, the observed distribution of attacks per round doesn't jibe with the idea that virtue DA is independent of regular DA (no interaction between the two), which means max 3 attacks per round. In particular, the proportion of 3-attack rounds appears much higher than expected from "independence."

If all the virtue weapons work the same way, then this would apply to Faith Baghnakhs as well (the proportion of 7-attack rounds being much higher than expected).

[chiyio]

A naked, merited MNK with NQ bream sushi parses 77% and 82% hitrate (79.5% average) on the two levels of Colibri and a Mithra parses a bit higher. A Pahluwan body makes a sushi-eating MNK parse higher than 85%.

I said if my accuracy was under 85% I'd switch to sushi, not eat sushi and be at 85%. With sushi, I'd obviously be capped at 95% all the time, just how I like it. The way I read it, that is what my original post reads, not sure why people are saying 85% with sushi.

I'd usually only do meat though if we have a 3brd 3mnk(or war) party, so 2 each of attack, accuracy, and haste songs.

(always had an outside pt of PLs, I have, and people I played with all had multiple accounts)

and yes, I'm talking pre salvage gear here, pre 2 handed update, basically right after expansion came out is when I did massive amounts of merit parties on mnk. about half while there were still bugbears there before the wyverns or whatever they're called.

capped accuracy helps so much with PL mp because of your counter rate that I really disliked meat at the time. Plus when you're always parsing, you get addicted to keeping a super high hit rate.

From my experience most of the mnks using meat at the time didn't understand how bad their accuracy really was.

I found it less annoying to just gear for crits/haste and use sushi.

And we were maxed out, for the day. Test if you want and try it out, I don't really care, but from my experience faith were better than destroyers (and I did many, many camps with mnks and wars there). and I didn't say they were better than relic for merits, just that I felt they probably are. Only relic mnk I knew at the time was not setup for the type of parties I did and I never parsed against them. (they pretty much exclusively duo xp'd with their relic drg partner and that requires different gear/playstyle)

I used destroyers most of the time because they required less work, and because virtue stones didn't stack at the time (if I recall correctly) So by the time you had 20 stacks of food, there wasn't a lot of inventory left for stones. I'd mostly only use them to make up for afk time, or wanted to feel like I had full time 100 fists for a while.

[Seedz]

Anyone who claims Destroyers are better than Faith in merit parties (or in any situation where you'd play MNK, assuming no Hades[+1]) have clearly not tried Faith themselves and are just jumping on the bandwagon. Honestly, try it out and come back here later.