ToC issues

[Toxictaru]

Ok, this is going to sound weird to some people, but I am looking for some input on how people manage this fight.

My guild has been plowing through ToC25 regular with absolutely no trouble. We've geared out most of our raid in full 245s, and are definitely geared for the content. We're not pushing server firsts or anything like that, but we're doing fine, taking down hard modes in Ulduar (yes yes I know).

I've seen a lot of conflicting strats for this. People recommending tanks gem full stam, gem full avoidance.

We're having an issue of management.

How do groups handle snobolds on the first phase and maintain dps on the boss to not have worms come out? How do people handle the fact that tanks are occasionally taking 60k+ damage in the course of a second between an impale and a regular melee hit?

In to phase 2, how are worms supposed to be handled? We've tried a bunch of different strats, and we always end up having some crap happen. We're well aware of some specifics (over zealous dps whacking the boss before the tank has it), but beyond that, we're finding positioning an issue, especially with regards to getting rid of toxin/bile. How do people handle that?

We're not overly concerned with Icehowl, he is arguably the easiest of the 3, and we've had significant success when we scrape through with BRs and just dealing with people dead.

One of the problems I have decided is plaguing is us that we're kind of extending our strat from ToC25 normal, which we then extended to ToC10 heroic, which we're now scaling to 25man heroic and just trying to fill in gaps. I think we're having an issue because its 3 totally different fights against bosses that are mostly the same, but have significantly larger issues to work through (as you move up the line in difficulty). I need a solid strat that I can try to explain to my guild that will get us through this fight while its still considered current content.

[Plow]

Ok, this is going to sound weird to some people, but I am looking for some input on how people manage this fight.

My guild has been plowing through ToC25 regular with absolutely no trouble. We've geared out most of our raid in full 245s, and are definitely geared for the content. We're not pushing server firsts or anything like that, but we're doing fine, taking down hard modes in Ulduar (yes yes I know).

I've seen a lot of conflicting strats for this. People recommending tanks gem full stam, gem full avoidance.

Tanks should be full stam for NRB, no question. After stam next priority is armor.

We're having an issue of management.

How do groups handle snobolds on the first phase and maintain dps on the boss to not have worms come out? How do people handle the fact that tanks are occasionally taking 60k+ damage in the course of a second between an impale and a regular melee hit?

For snobolds: don't even worry about ones on melee, they'll die on their own from cleaves. Any ranged that get a snobold on them need to run *to* the melee... and not "close to" the melee, they need to run right up to the boss basically. Everyone should switch to the snobold.

For the tanks, more stam and armor. Switch at 2 stacks, it's really quite simple, the elaborate shit is not necessary for the most part. Paladin tank healers.

In to phase 2, how are worms supposed to be handled? We've tried a bunch of different strats, and we always end up having some crap happen. We're well aware of some specifics (over zealous dps whacking the boss before the tank has it), but beyond that, we're finding positioning an issue, especially with regards to getting rid of toxin/bile. How do people handle that?

First off, there's no getting rid of bile. The people with bile need to stay away from people so as not to kill them, and be actively helping to remove toxin.

My 25 man group uses a lock to tank the stationary one. I'm honestly not sure how he works it exactly, I can ask him any specific questions you'd like answers for. Hate resets each time they burrow, though, so yeah. It definitely makes it easier to work with bile and stuff.

[Jodwahh]

Before you start have everyone equip a wg freedom/pvp trinket.

Gorefist: 3 tanks, each tank taking 2 2 2 3 3 3 stacks of impale with BoPs being used to remove them. The Bops are used to remove the 3 stacks with the 2 stacks being healed through. For snobolds, have ranged spread out around his arse is a large semi-circle. Whatever caster gets a snobold runs into the melee around Gore's arse so chain lightnings, cleaves etc hit the snobold while still maintaining some dps on Gorefist.

Worms: 1 tank on Acid, 2 on Dread. When the first dreadscale tank gets bile'd the second tank taunts it off him so the first tank can break toxins on people. Acid is tanked by the same tank till it dies which should be during the time it's kited while dreads stable. After the first burrow the acid tank will always get toxined so whoever gets bile from dread MUST release acids tank fucking fast. When Dread become's mobile again we usually pop Bloodlust to speed uo dps through an enrage'd worm.

Icehowl: Usually the acidmaw tank tank's him under one of the shields in a corner of the room with people spread in a semi circle around him. When people get hit by arctic breath have them trinket out, if the person who is being targeted for breath trinkets then it breaks the ice on everyone hit by it. Make sure everyone hs/pots/is healed before massive crash. When theres 5 seconds left till the crash happens have everyone maneuver within the same 1/4 of the room so he will always charge towards the crowd maximizing derps during the head-butt. 15stam/minor speed is helpful on boots. Have hunters ready to tranq if it all goes wrong and a fucktard doesnt move.


Think thats pretty much everything. Dps will be tight the first few times you do it, good luck

[tol]

How do people handle the fact that tanks are occasionally taking 60k+ damage in the course of a second between an impale and a regular melee hit?

I don't believe that OP is talking about impale stacks killing his tanks. He is talking about straight impale application followed within miliseconds by a regular melee hit which can hit upwards to over 60k hp combined. Since application damage does not increase depending on how many stacks are on the tank, I think he is asking more how to avoid getting gibbed and not a "whats the strategy for stackslol"

Plow suggested more STA but even with some major stamina stacking is it even possible to get above 60k hp raid buffed?

I don't know *how* geared your tanks are but we're definitely decked out in 245's and have the same problem where one of our tanks gets gibbed by the same thing.

Ohshi - 80DK of <Fidelity> on Staghelm

[Naramaska]

Your tanks should have their cooldowns and external ones chained during 3-4 stacks on Gormok. Barring that, abuse mechanics like pally's get-out-of-dying card, battle rez, etc.

[Plow]

I don't believe that OP is talking about impale stacks killing his tanks. He is talking about straight impale application followed within miliseconds by a regular melee hit which can hit upwards to over 60k hp combined. Since application damage does not increase depending on how many stacks are on the tank, I think he is asking more how to avoid getting gibbed and not a "whats the strategy for stackslol"

Plow suggested more STA but even with some major stamina stacking is it even possible to get above 60k hp raid buffed?

I don't know *how* geared your tanks are but we're definitely decked out in 245's and have the same problem where one of our tanks gets gibbed by the same thing.

Ohshi - 80DK of <Fidelity> on Staghelm

Impale does the same damage as a normal melee hit, if your tanks are taking over 30k from a normal gormok swing they're lacking on armor, and/or there's no ap debuff.


You definitely need the eh to live through 2 swings together, but that shouldn't be 60k+ after reduction.

[Toxictaru]

Our biggest hits tend to be coming on our DK. He was using his regular tanking setup/gemming, which included some strange stuff, but more of a lean on avoidance than pure stam. My wife and another of our tanks sat down with him and told him that pure stam is the way to go so you can soak those big hits. He did, hated it, and truly believes that going back to avoidance is the proper thing to be doing.

I don't quite know how to explain to him that eating a 40k hit is not going to be mitigated by an extra 10-20% avoidance. His gear is good, its pretty much all 245s.

But yeah, for reference, last night we had an attempt where the tank, in a matter of 0.07s took a 23k melee hit, followed immediately by a 41k impale. That is outright impossible to heal through.

[Jodwahh]

How much buffed HP do your tanks have and how many stacks of impale they getting to?

[Plow]

Ok, I should clarify one thing first off: I didn't realize he got 45 seconds on 25 heroic, so ignore me about the rotation, listen to the other guys.

However:

41k impale = something's wrong.

Like, here's the move: Impale - Spell - World of Warcraft


So, let's say your tank had 65% reduction from armor on the first hit. That would put his base melee dmg at 65,714. So, impale damage would be 98,571. After reduction, 34.5k basically. The numbers don't match up unless the range is HUGE (like, 15k base damage range gap). It sounds like his reduction is sub-par and he got a mid range normal hit and a high end impale hit.


Can you find out your dk's armor with devo and everything?


Also, here's a simple explanation for why armor and hp are the superior choices in this situation:

Avoidance leaves things up to RNG. Sooner or later, be it the first time you ever try, or down the road when you're going for insanity, bad RNG is going to happen. You're going to get hit not just twice in a row, but 3 times. And at some point even 4.

Now, the important thing to remember here is that the healers are not going to oom. The fight is specifically balanced around the insane mana generation all healers, but particularly paladins, are running around with these days. Point being, rather you avoid the hit doesn't even matter all that much-- you've got a bigass heal incoming, and it's going to land rather you get hit or not. That's just how healing works now. The damage is too fast to smart cast, and it's unnecessary anyway.

So, there's 2 major flaws with avoidance. The first being that it doesn't really benefit the raid in terms of mana conservation and whatnot. The second being the simple fact that sooner or later, avoidance is going to fail.

Health on all fights, and armor on physical fights, are always going to be there, period.

And as long as you have the health and armor to survive the hits, the heals are going to come rather you avoid or not.

[Toxictaru]

I know that avoidance is dumb (I play prot offspec). Its just hard to convince someone else otherwise. Stam clearly leaves RNG with a lower priority than when you gem for full avoidance. Just hard to convince someone to not be stubborn.

That generally isn't our biggest issue though. Trying to manage snobolds and the transition IS whats owning us. That said, should we have all 3 tanks gem out for stam? (we're using a Pally, Warrior and DK) Our Pally is probably our best tank, and he is surviving for longer and tends to be more aware of what the hell is going on, our DK is getting his face smashed in, and our warrior, well, he lives just fine on Gormok... but when those worms come out? Forget about it.

[Tricen]

Why not switch the DK with a war or something that can block hits, I'd imagine that would make it a little easier?

[Plow]

Consider a warlock tank for the stationary worm. Can we see the dk's armory?

[Plow]

Actually, don't need to see it. If the dude is *gemming* avoidance and thinks it's going to help against a boss whose biggest damage is unavoidable, he's your problem plain and simple.

[Toxictaru]

We're pretty limited on the tank thing. We DO have another warrior tank, but our DK is an officer and insists on being there (and doesn't even bothering picking up dps gear for offspec).

I'd rather have shield tanks there, but its not going to happen.

I'll check on the armor situation.

[Jodwahh]

A DK can do HC beasts just fine, however a retard thats gemming for avoidance cannot. Basicly he sounds like the weak link in the chain on gorefiend. Either he changes the way he's geared or you're stuck on beasts till 3.3.

[Toxictaru]

Oh, since it was asked for, this is his armory. His gemming IS stam right now, but he is saying he plans on switching back.

DK tank: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm not 100% sure why he is using Worldcarver, as I know he has the 2h Mace from Yogg25 (his current gear he isn't hit capped).

For the hell of it, these are our other two tanks:
Warrior Tank: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...renas&n=Bulliy
Pally tank: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...nas&n=Aderalia

[Kalisa]

Hi. Toxic's wife here. \o.O/ I heal. Specifically, I've been the one looking at all these deaths trying to make sure my healers weren't the ones who were fucking up.

Thought I'd post a few of the insta-gibs that are happening for feedback's sakes. These are from Worldoflogs. I can't post a link with <10 posts, so make Toxic get it if you want to look.

[22:12:07.281] Gormok the Impaler Impale Biryani 4941
[22:12:07.281] Gormok the Impaler hits Biryani 24096
[22:12:08.109] Gormok the Impaler Impale Biryani 27982 (O: 3101)

[22:19:22.765] Gormok the Impaler hits Biryani 21950 (A: 2621)
[22:19:23.046] Gormok the Impaler Impale Biryani 34366
[22:19:23.093] Gormok the Impaler Impale Biryani 2473 (O: 9449)

[22:29:53.156] Gormok the Impaler hits Biryani 25110 (A: 7624)
[22:29:56.781] Gormok the Impaler hits Biryani 23654
[22:29:56.953] Gormok the Impaler Impale Biryani 27467 (O: 14193

And here's one from our warrior, who died about as much as our DK, but I think that was a problem of a healadin with a low attention span.

[22:44:59.953] Gormok the Impaler Impale Bulliy 5407
[22:45:00.656] Gormok the Impaler hits Bulliy 24887
[22:45:01.078] Gormok the Impaler Impale Bulliy 26960 (O: 11334)

[23:17:52.734] Dreadscale Burning Bite Bulliy 10838 (R: 5660)
[23:17:52.750] Dreadscale hits Bulliy 25434 (B: 3353)
[23:17:54.687] Dreadscale hits Bulliy 26569 (A: 2601, B: 1895) - Not Gormok, but still some huge hits.

[Plow]

This looks kind of like it's related to the tank rotation, or just improper cooldown use.

Judging by the damage numbers, these deaths are all a while into the fight, yeah?

If you're doing 3 stacks at the end, what needs to happen is this: the tanks need to know exactly when the impales are going to land.

They happen exactly 10 seconds apart.

The warrior should last stand before the first one, then shield wall 1 second before the 2nd hits. This will have him shield walled for both the 2nd and 3rd impales.


The DK will want to vampyric blood the first one, and be prepared to blood tap if he's not going to make it, then IBF 1 second before the 2nd, which will have him IBF'd for the 2nd and 3rd.


Honestly, I don't know the talent specs that well, but the DK looks fine gear/enchant/gem wise.

[Rokku]

Honestly, I don't know the talent specs that well, but the DK looks fine gear/enchant/gem wise.

The spec and the glyphs are really really wtf.

Looking at that fact alone, I can't say I'd have a lot of faith in a DK that can't even properly spec or glyph themselves, much less someone that would bust out something like the GoDisease on a tanking build. I'm not even going to touch the glyph of plague strike on his DPS build.

I'm going to agree with Plow on probably being an issue of properly managing cooldowns, but at the same time, I can't say much towards the skill of a DK that would spec as a blood tank and avoid Will of the Necropolis.

Also, Toxic and Kalisa, Mikayla says hi.

[Tricen]

He needs agi22 to his cloak instead of 16def rating... He might be parry hasting himself to death too with that expertise, but I'm not sure how much it matters.