Double Attack - Triple Attack

[Gethsemane]

Remove a lot of my previous post so this is more of an information test. Not like I can test anything so no point in speculating about anything even related to these two traits. I'll post whatever information I find out or threads I can find. Don't want to make this a debate thread really; just information.

Help @ Math probabilities (DA/TA/multihits)
double attack and multihit weapons
Did you know DA has diminishing returns? (lolall) I actually read this on Alla.
How to apply DA/TA to multi-hit weapons mathematically?
DA and WS in Gorget Accuracy Tests
Triple Attack vs Double Attack
A question on enhance da/ta equipment

Double Attack Equipment/Weapons (excludes ACP Body DA+2%, ASA Legs DA+2%)
Triple Attack Equipment/Weapons (no add-on augment available)

Warrior Base Double Attack Rate: 10% (Wiki)
Warrior Merits: Double Attack Rate (1% per upgrade, 5 max for 5%)
Max Merits+Base: 15% Double Attack Rate

Thief Base Triple Attack Rate: 5% (Wiki)
Thief Merits: Triple Attack Rate (1% per upgrade, 5 max for 5%)
Max Merits+Base: 10% Triple Attack Rate

Showing Diminishing Returns for each % of DA Added. This pretty much proves it.

Okay I stand corrected. There is slight diminishing returns because everyone knows that FFXI's math is not rounded up/down/etc. I see the light But it's very, very trivial.

1000 hits at no DA
1% 1010 hits = 1.01
2% 1020 hits = 1.00990099009901 (1020/1010)
3% 1030 hits = 1.009803921568627 (1030/1020)
4% 1040 hits = 1.009708737864078 (...)
5% 1050 hits = 1.009615384615385 (...)
6% 1060 hits = 1.00952380952381 (...)
7% 1070 hits = 1.009433962264151 (...)
8% 1080 hits = 1.009345794392523 (...)
9% 1090 hits = 1.009259259259259 (...)
10% 1100 hits = 1.009174311926606 (...)

Now yeah if you compare 10% DA 1100/base of 1000 it would be 10%. Interesting stuff.

[Colenzo]

obviously you havent lurked enough

[Marokko]

Beat me to it.

[Rugazanami]

Okay I am new to posting here and before anyone jumps on me I admit I have no hour long experiments into the wee hours of morning testing double attack or testing triple attack. I just spent the last 2 hours reading through various double attack and triple attack threads. And I've read the entire critical hit rate thread and it's quite an amazing experiment. Anyways to get to the point.

We know that Double Attack and Triple Attack both have a base of 5%.

I stopped reading about there.

[Shenrien]

you read to far if that's where you stopped lol.

[Shamaya]

I don't know the answers to all of your questions, but here's what I know and what I can contribute.

Yes, d.a./t.a./etc do have diminishing returns. Not by formula/design (there is no code in the game that says that when you stack more d.a./t.a., successive amounts will do less), but simply of natural consequence.

It's very easy to see what I mean. Here's an example.

Let's say you have 0% triple or double attack. Then you add brutal. You want to find,
marginal increase = (new total hits per 100) / (old total hits per 100)
old total hits per 100 would be.. 100 (no previous d.a./t.a.)
new total hits per 100 would be.. 105 (brutal gives 5)
so, marginal increase = 105/100 = 5%

let's pretend you 100% double attack (some how). then you add brutal,
old total hits per 100 would be.. 200 (+100% double attack)
new total hits per 100 would be.. 205 (+100% d.a. + brutal = +105% d.a.)
so, marginal increase = 205/200 = 2.5%

simple. this is why stacking double attack over haste general fails. one is a marginally decreasing function, the other cumulatively increasing / exponential


also the double attack trait is 10%, not 5%


d.a. does less for thief than (most) other jobs,
because allegedly it procs before t.a. (or so i've heard tests have shown but can't be fucked to remember where)
how many hits/100 does a thief with capped triple merits and brutal get? the calc is like this:
(0.95*1.2)+0.05*2 = 1.24 = +24%

mercy stroke and mandalic stab (non /nin and w/brutal) are, thus (realistically), 1.24 hit ws's (over time)
with /nin, they're 2.48 hit ws's


d.a. and t.a. can only proc on the first and second** hit of a ws. someone should put my understanding of this to the test. it was always what I'd heard that d.a. and t.a. could proc for the first hit. the exceptions**, from what I've since heard, are that for a long time we've known that when /nin, d.a. and t.a. can proc on the first and second hit. apparently if you're 2handing as well, d.a. and t.a. can proc on the first and second hit. I'd heard it was actually all hits.. when 2handing.. but browsing forums recently, I've seen "1st&2nd hits only" quoted for 2handers. I don't have any two handed jobs, so I don't care so much, so maybe someone else can clarify this issue.


i don't know anything about a cap rate on double attack
but as I just mentioned, this would not be an issue given that they allegedly only proc on the first hit. if, for 2handers, it was the case that they could proc on all hits, this would be a problem for some (but surely not all) ws's


yes, people that know well enough do factor d.a., t.a., and crit% into their gear choices. this has been some of the reason for using byakko's, for example. what's the answer when it comes to gearing for WS, taking all of these factors into account along with all the normal ones like fStr, attack, WSC, etc.? You have to look very particularly at each piece to decide. Obviously, there's no general rule. Knowing which pieces are best either comes with time, or comes with careful pen-and-paper calculation otherwise. up until recently, accurately calculating crit from dex into a ws calculation was impossible. but we're about at the point where you can get an exact crit% amount, or at least a very good estimate.


You're right to think about crit and d.a. being decent ws augments. But oftentimes there are simply better uses for the augmentable piece. For thf, you can turn mirke wardecores into a phenomenal evisceration piece by going with 10acc and +3%crit. But I'd rather go with a better TP body, so I didn't choose that. Sometimes I've wondered if Thf AF2 body could be the best evisceration body with enough acc and wsc, but idk. With the crit research, we should be able to very soon tell what exactly "enhances critical hit rate" items are doing. We already know what they're doing for d.a. and t.a., and in general we're pretty much set on d.a./t.a. knowledge.

[Byrthnoth]

Misunderstandings:
* Double Attack has a base rate of 10%, and you can merit it up to 15%. Triple Attack has a base rate of 5%, and you can merit it up to 10%.
* The maximum number of possible attack rounds is 8, and the maximum number of Double Attacks possible per Weaponskill is 2. I don't know about Triple Attack, but I would guess that there can only be 2 triple attacks per WS as well and that they're exclusive with Double Attacks (so a THF 3-hit WS couldn't hit 8 times, for instance).
* I have no idea what happens to cases where you DA or 3A more than two times. With a decent Warrior WS build/merits it's actually about a 1% possibility on Raging Rush/King's Justice.
* There is no known Double or Triple Attack cap. Assassin's and Warrior's Charge make me think the proc rates cap at 100%.
* The amount that Double Attack is worth during Weaponskills is hard to calculate. It's worth the most on something like Penta Thrust and worth the least on something like Steel Cyclone.
* Stacking DA/3A has diminishing returns because the percentage increase in your damage decreases the more you have. For instance, for a Samurai/Dragoon with Pole Grip (+2% Double Attack), that 2% DA gives them an extra 2% Attack rounds. (102 attacks/100 attacks) For a WAR with 5/5 DA merits, wearing Pole Grip gives them 1.7% more attack rounds. The "diminishing" part essentially doesn't matter unless you're getting Fighter's Roll (a lot of +DA) as WAR, but the important part is that an equal or lesser amount of Haste is generally better than it.
* Warrior's don't use Rampage anymore >:/

[Shamaya]

I raise you, bubbly byrnie.
http://timetotakebackthecountry.com/...0/mr_burns.jpg

[Cadsuane]

DA has no diminishing returns (attack rate is raised by the same amount for every 1% DA/TA), these people are wrong, use the search function.

I stopped reading about there.

I also stopped reading about there.

[CDF]

Just a few things about mechanics of DA:

1) Saying DA may proc only on the first and second hits (or first and any one other) is a lot different than saying DA may proc a maximum of two times. For example, if DA were allowed to proc on any of the hits of Penta Thrust with the constraint of 2 DA maximum, there would be more opportunities for DA to proc than if DA were permitted to proc on the first two hits only.

It can easily be shown that DA processing on exactly two hits (first and another) is more likely than the other.

2) On a per-hit basis, DA is less influential on the average no. of hits of a 5-hit WS than that of a 1-hit. For example, given 10% DA, for a +2% increase in DA the average number of hits of Penta Thrust increases from 5.2 to 5.24 (0.769%) whereas for SC, the average increases from 1.1 to 1.12 (1.81%). Of course, you may have to account for possible differences in the first hit of the WS when assessing changes in average WS damage overall.

3) In light of (1) and (2), don't forget that DA doesn't just increase TP-phase damage; it also increases average WS damage.

[Liquidedust]

DA has no diminishing returns (attack rate is raised by the same amount for every 1% DA/TA), these people are wrong, use the search function.



I also stopped reading about there.

there is a long thread on this exact topic that is a few months old were we concluded its a matter of sematics.

[CDF]

Actually, if you were doing a grad program in economics, I would argue understanding general trends in changes of rate of return (which is a really basic concept; see any intro econ text) is kind of important so that you don't embarrass yourself. In FFXI, who freaking cares.

[Cadsuane]

Yeah, who cares. DA gear isn't a hot commodity anyway, this is just a harmless of abuse of language.

Funnily enough what I mostly remember from introductory economics is how mutilated and fucked simple functions can become when all price/quantity graphs are backwards and elasticity calculations require percentages. And this isn't even an economics problem.

[Byrthnoth]

Wait, so can you only DA the first two hits (or only on two specific swings)?
I've always done my math assuming that you could DA wherever and it was just capped to two, but I never thought to collect data on it because the odds of a two DAs occuring and landing all five hits on Raging Rush/King's Justice were small enough that the differences weren't easily distinguishable (10% vs. 4%). It would be easiest to test with a WAR and Penta Thrust though.

Penta Thrust (24% DA rate, 95% Hit rate assumed):
(DA Rate)^2*(Hit Rate)^7 = 4% with only two chances of DAing per Weaponskill
10 Combinations * (DA Rate)^2*(1 - DA Rate)^3*(Hit Rate)^7 = 17.6% with 5 chances of DA per weaponskill and with DA procs over 2 being reduced to no-DA cases.

One Polearm WAR/SAM parse on birds tracking TP returns would let you know which it was.

Edit: was in crit mode for some reason

[Masamune]

Just a few things about mechanics of DA:

1) Saying DA may proc only on the first and second hits (or first and any one other) is a lot different than saying DA may proc a maximum of two times. For example, if DA were allowed to proc on any of the hits of Penta Thrust with the constraint of 2 DA maximum, there would be more opportunities for DA to proc than if DA were permitted to proc on the first two hits only.

It can easily be shown that DA processing on exactly two hits (first and another) is more likely than the other.

2) On a per-hit basis, DA is less influential on the average no. of hits of a 5-hit WS than that of a 1-hit. For example, given 10% DA, for a +2% increase in DA the average number of hits of Penta Thrust increases from 5.2 to 5.24 (0.769%) whereas for SC, the average increases from 1.1 to 1.12 (1.81%). Of course, you may have to account for possible differences in the first hit of the WS when assessing changes in average WS damage overall.

3) In light of (1) and (2), don't forget that DA doesn't just increase TP-phase damage; it also increases average WS damage.

I followed CDF advice 1) for the DoT formula in my dmg calculator tool, and it work quite nice with my parses.

[Cream Soda]

DA has no diminishing returns (attack rate is raised by the same amount for every 1% DA/TA), these people are wrong, use the search function.



I also stopped reading about there.

In pure number of attacks, no diminishing returns. In % increase, yes there is diminishing returns. Adding more DA to your previous DA is less of an increase than adding DA to no DA.

For example.
A) You have 1 Dollar
B) You have 100 dollars

A) Add 1 dollar
B) Add 1 dollar

A) You now have 2 dollars, 100% increase in your money
B) You now have 101 dollars, 1% increase in your money.

Yes, you get the exact same amount, 1 dollar in both situations, but when you have less dollars to begin with, the increase is bigger.

[Gethsemane]

Thanks for responding to the thread and giving me a few facts that I was curious about. I did read all those other threads and had a general idea of stuff. I was just stating a summary in the first thread whether it was true or factual. But with what you guys responded with makes a lot of sense. And that would actually be crazy if DA had a cap of 100%. I wonder if SE is adding in more DA through augments on top of critical gear to get us to start using it. Well regardless thanks for this information. I will try to contribute what I can once I restart the game and do Warrior to 75. Thanks again.

[Shinryuu]

The whole diminishing returns thing is stale. No, DA has no diminishing returns, yet you cannot simply say (example) 5% double attack beats 4% hitrate given 91% hitrate. It depends on your old double attack rate. You still need to do the math on it.

[Byrthnoth]

Well regardless thanks for this information. I will try to contribute what I can once I restart the game and do Warrior to 75. Thanks again.

One more thing. They stopped pretending they can't resurrect characters that had been deactivated for 3 months. You can probably get your old character back as long as you have the info and it wasn't banned or something.



Look at this example for "does DA give decreasing benefit the more you have or not"

You can have 1% Haste moving you from 39 to 40% Haste or 2% DA moving you from 22 to 24% DA rate. Which is better?
.61/.6 = 1.67% Increase
2% DA = 2% Increase, DA wins?
Nope!
124 Attacks/122 Attacks = 1.64% Increase
102 Attacks/100 Attack = 2% Increase if the person didn't have any DA to start with

If you're measuring it as an increase in the total number of attacks, it always does give +x Attacks/100. If you're measuring it as an increasing of percent damage, which is typically how we compare values like hit rate and Haste, then it does give diminishing returns. I mean, Haste +% gives the same delay off moving from 0% to 1% Haste or 50% to 51% Haste. It's only because we treat it as an increase in percentage damage that we call it increasing.

[Cadsuane]

No, actually, it's because attack rate goes to infinity as haste approaches 100%.