Registered Sex Offenders

[drwaffles]

Late to the party, but for some reason Omnipotent reminds me so much of Elphaba right now it's hilarious.

[Demosthenes11]

Except for the fact that there's no way to eliminate every innocent person from the list and because I and you think they should be eliminated from the list, they are still on the list. The list AS IT IS NOW, is more harmful than helpful.

wow we made a full circle.
good day sir, lern 2 argument

[Serjero]

Edit: People who piss in a bush don't get harassed because they have nothing to hide. The ones who get harassed are offenders who have actually harmed a child. While theres no debating theres serious nutjobs who going around fucking with people for fun, the details of the crime are listed on that website.

You assume too much. Take a look at how most of the green dots don't include what the person was convicted of (most likely trivial shit since it didn't fall under the other categories). Some people upon simply seeing that the person is on the list (regardless of whatever the crime really is or if they even find out) will flip shit and fuck with the person. The people who go out of their way to "protect" their children don't think intelligently or logically just that they see a threat to their child.

As for a convicted individual getting respect from the police? They have no entitlement to equal treatment, convict who is released is subject to various stringent laws that govern alot of times, the rest of their life.

So when society becomes your biggest enemy, you think that there should be nothing to protect you? Also that rights are an arbitrary thing to convicted criminals? We might as well just kill all violent criminals by your standards. I mean they don't deserve equal treatment or rights after all.

[Serjero]

I can't say that's a fact because I honestly don't know. While it may not be a preventative measure, its a protective one. Law is not all designed to be preventative.

The list protects jack shit and tries to be preventative. Again, by those standards it's useless.

[Cream Soda]

wow we made a full circle.
good day sir, lern 2 argument

K, let's take the "if"s out of this.

What good about this list outweighs the bad?

There is no "if those ppl are removed" because they aren't they're on the list.

So, let's here your stand on why having the list is better than not having the list. Give a good reason for it.

[*Shinzon*]

You assume too much. Take a look at how most of the green dots don't include what the person was convicted of (most likely trivial shit since it didn't fall under the other categories). Some people upon simply seeing that the person is on the list (regardless of whatever the crime really is or if they even find out) will flip shit and fuck with the person. The people who go out of their way to "protect" their children don't think intelligently or logically just that they see a threat to their child.



So when society becomes your biggest enemy, you think that there should be nothing to protect you? Also that rights are an arbitrary thing to convicted criminals? We might as well just kill all violent criminals by your standards. I mean they don't deserve equal treatment or rights after all.

To address the first issue yea, I agree and the list needs to be more comprehensive, IE all crimes/violations included, and details scaled according to crime. But that's not to say that's completely wrong and useless. The concept is good, just the current application isn't great.

To the second issue, once a person has been convicted of a crime and released on parole or released after serving jail time, they are constantly involved with the justice system in one way or another. It's a reason the justice system is so overwhelmed. When you commit a crime you forfeit certain rights, like the right to freedom by becoming a guest of a state facility. If the state decides the police need to question you because they believe you have information about a crime or person committing a crime, you have no right to say no. You've been deemed dangerous to others or a cheat or just shown no respect for the laws of the society. This of course also depends on the type of conviction. I'm talking about the more serious crimes.

Edit:

The list protects jack shit and tries to be preventative. Again, by those standards it's useless.

Rape victims argue otherwise. It protects by allowing an informed choice.

Edit: I'm not at all saying that all convicted felons deserve to be treated this, but many that make a lifetime out of crime, do not reintegrate into society well and often become involved in crime again, according to recidivism and the arguments for ADR courts which preach community service and therapy to prevent further crime. It's unfortunate but a person has to live with the decisions they made.

[Serjero]

Rape victims argue otherwise. It protects by allowing an informed choice.

When rape stops being primarily perpetrated by family or friends and false accusations stop making up a decent chunk of convictions you might be correct. Considering the recidivism rate for rape is low and the fact you aren't very likely to actually be raped by a stranger the list just seems useless.

Edit: I'm not at all saying that all convicted felons deserve to be treated this, but many that make a lifetime out of crime, do not reintegrate into society well and often become involved in crime again, according to recidivism and the arguments for ADR courts which preach community service and therapy to prevent further crime. It's unfortunate but a person has to live with the decisions they made.

Very few criminals make a lifetime out of crime and you'd be correct in the fact that many don't integrate back into society well. Though when you have a system in place that makes it harder to integrate back into society you'll find that more people turn back to crime as a way to get by (which is why you see a lot of larcenists, drug dealers, etc... quickly start breaking the laws again).

[*Shinzon*]

When rape stops being primarily perpetrated by family or friends and false accusations stop making up a decent chunk of convictions you might be correct. Considering the recidivism rate for rape is low and the fact you aren't very likely to actually be raped by a stranger the list just seems useless.

Do you know that because of all those false rape accusations, real rape victims usually don't report it? It's the attitude you just took there which justifies a list like that to an extent. No one ever believes them, so they move and when making a traumatized decision of where to move next, can use a list like that. You always hear about the false accusations, but you don't hear about all the unreported rape. Albeit that the registry and these websites need adjustment.

Edit: Just because it's more likely that you'll be raped by a family member or friend should have no bearing on a rape victim, a real victim, not being able to have access to this kind of information.

[Acturus]

When rape stops being primarily perpetrated by family or friends and false accusations stop making up a decent chunk of convictions you might be correct. Considering the recidivism rate for rape is low and the fact you aren't very likely to actually be raped by a stranger the list just seems useless.

Those facts hold no bearing on the state of mind of a rape victim though. You can't just tell a rape victim, "you aren't usually raped by a stranger" and they feel all better.

[Serjero]

Do you know that because of all those false rape accusations, real rape victims usually don't report it? It's the attitude you just took there which justifies a list like that to an extent. No one ever believes them, so they move and when making a traumatized decision of where to move next, can use a list like that. You always hear about the false accusations, but you don't hear about all the unreported rape. Albeit that the registry and these websites need adjustment.

People don't report rape cases because they don't want the perpetrator (again usually a family member or friend) to go to jail. I mean I remember in Colorado they wanted to pass a law where rapists could be subjected to the death penalty but they decided not to because they feared that it would make victims not want to press charges and go to the police. Not because of false rape accusations. That's just stupid. I mean I know the false accusations make rape charges seem like a joke especially to police, but more often then not rape charges do get sent to court and unless the "victim" comes out that it was a lie the guy will be convicted. The systems broken and there's a blatant discrimination against males (not to mention most jury's are out to get a conviction because they believe that's their job). I mean it hasn't been until recently that there has been movement (and not even movement in America but Britain IIRC) that would place a penalty on falsely accusing people of rape. Albeit it was something relatively piss poor like a max of 2 yrs in prison and/or a fine. Whereas an actual rape conviction is lengthy jail time. In a situation in which a rape charge doesn't get convicted it might stop people from coming forwards. As it is right now there is no reason not to outside of personal reasons.

[*Shinzon*]

People don't report rape cases because they don't want the perpetrator (again usually a family member or friend) to go to jail. I mean I remember in Colorado they wanted to pass a law where rapists could be subjected to the death penalty but they decided not to because they feared that it would make victims not want to press charges and go to the police. Not because of false rape accusations. That's just stupid. I mean I know the false accusations make rape charges seem like a joke especially to police, but more often then not rape charges do get sent to court and unless the "victim" comes out that it was a lie the guy will be convicted. The systems broken and there's a blatant blatant against males (not to mention most jury's are out to get a conviction because they believe that's their job). I mean it hasn't been until recently that there has been movement (and not even movement in America but Britain IIRC) that would place a penalty on falsely accusing people of rape. Albeit it was something relatively piss poor like a max of 2 yrs in prison and/or a fine. Whereas an actual rape conviction is lengthy jail time. In a situation in which a rape charge doesn't get convicted it might stop people from coming forwards. As it is right now there is no reason not to outside of personal reasons.

They don't report it because they fear facing their attacker. Don't get it wrong. Rape is extremely traumatizing for most women. Saying they don't want the perpetrator going to jail is like saying they have no qualms about being raped again. This is not domestic disputes we're talking about, it's rape. Whatever that law in Colorado is, it's just retarded. Maybe it's like that in some cases, but that's far from being the majority. Again many rape cases go unreported and thus there is no legal action taken against the perpetrator.

The jury doesn't believe it's their job, don't be naive. Jurys are often swayed by the emotional testimony that these victims bring into the court room, despite being required to make a decision based solely on the facts. That's a misconception also that every rape or a majority of rape cases are fully investigated by police and end up in court. Many women refuse to testify in open court and face their attacker. It's really not fair to all the real victims when you address the issue in the way you just did. I'm dude and I don't agree with that point of view. You are attacking the victims and encouraging laws that will allow rapists to be less fearful of the law.

Edit: Again that's not to say that false allegations of rape don't happen.

[AoE]

I really don't know how much this will add to the topic because this is personal experience not based on any facts but I'll throw this out there anyway.

One of my friends unfortunately lost her virginity to rape by a U.S army man who happened to be her boyfriend at the time because he decided to slip her a ruffie instead of waiting for her to come of age (I don't know his age at the time but she was clearly taken advantage of in more ways than one). Because she had no one on her side for support, when she took him to court, she lost pretty much because of he said/she said since apparently there were witnesses of the event happening that took the side of the army guy.

I've been friends with her a long time and it was actually very difficult to get this out of her because it induces panic attacks which I've witnessed before and it's very tough to deal with when you don't know how to. She has a pretty awesome personality when she's at her best but she definitely suffers from mental issues that makes it difficult for her to bond with people especially men.

Now I see the benefits to this list but at the same time, I see the flaws with it. Even if this man was convicted, my friend will forever be scarred by this event so I don't exactly see how this list would help her, the victim, because it is a traumatizing experience that doesn't go away after the fact. Regardless if she uses this list or not to dictate where she should move, there's always a possibility that she'll happen to pass by something or someone will say something to her that will bring back that moment for her. If anything, having a list like this will force her to live in fear when she has to face the reality that every place she moves to will potentially have a sexual offender who also happens to be a convicted rapist or for example, a guy in army fatigues which is one of her triggers.

People pissing in the bushes and getting caught is just an example of carelessness on their part and I don't see how that warrants having your life changed for the worse to satisfy a parent who thinks it's better to live in fear to protect their child instead of having the confidence to teach their children to avoid situations where they feel unsafe and informing them which neighbors to go to when they feel threatened should they not be around. I'm not saying that simply doing that will prevent an event from happening but I'd personally feel more comfortable knowing I can trust my child to make the right decision than just hoping that shit will always be ok because I'm a good parent.

There's way too much grey area in this topic for people to simply choose one side and be ok with it.

[Serjero]

They don't report it because they fear facing their attacker. Don't get it wrong. Rape is extremely traumatizing for most women. Saying they don't want the perpetrator going to jail is like saying they have no qualms about being raped again. This is not domestic disputes we're talking about, it's rape. Whatever that law in Colorado is, it's just retarded. Maybe it's like that in some cases, but that's far from being the majority. Again many rape cases go unreported and thus there is no legal action taken against the perpetrator.

The jury doesn't believe it's their job, don't be naive. Jurys are often swayed by the emotional testimony that these victims bring into the court room, despite being required to make a decision based solely on the facts.

I guess that's kinda true, but when the attacker is someone they know then the whole "don't want to face them" bullshit goes out the window. In cases where it's an acquaintance or stranger I could understand. Otherwise nope. Traumatizing events suck and mess with your head I can agree with that but not reporting crimes only puts you and other people in danger and I have no respect for people who can't come forward. As far as the "no qualms about being raped again" some victims honestly don't want their attacker to go to jail for whatever personal reasons they might have (it would break up the family, ruin what they have, etc...). It doesn't mean they want to be raped again. I don't condone or support this way of thinking, it does happen which is unfortunate.

As far as the jury thing goes, every time I've been to a criminal case most jurors seem to have the mindset that people are guilty until proven innocent and a lot of bullshit convictions go through because of that way of thinking. Granted I have never (and can't for a long time) serve on a jury for a criminal trial, I have participated as a witness in cases and as part of the prosecution. Also you are right in that emotional testimony can easily sway jurors... In all honesty if I was ever in a court case I'd give up a trial by jury depending on what I'm being charged with cause of how incompetent and poor the jury system is.

[Day]

lol at seno trolling himself in this thread

[*Shinzon*]

Believe it or not, it's hard to face a stranger, it's even harder to face a family member. The reason for that is because an accusation of rape affects a family much more than a stranger, or member outside a family and there is pressure often from inside the family that greatly affects the way some of these cases progress.

[Serjero]

Believe it or not, it's hard to face a stranger, it's even harder to face a family member. The reason for that is because an accusation of rape affects a family much more than a stranger, or member outside a family and there is pressure often from inside the family that greatly affects the way some of these cases progress.

While I'm not disputing that it's hard to face an attacker and that it's very difficult to face an attacker that's also a family member, I do feel that it's really up to the person to find the will to face them. Also I don't necessarily condone laws that punish accusers if they fail to get a conviction, however, I do feel there should be some punishment if the rape accusation is found to be false. Also I know that a majority of rape cases aren't completely investigated by the police and often times medical examinations aren't taken or cheated and polygraph tests are rarely used. It's unfortunate but the system IS broken. Also AoE hit the nail on the as to how the list is useless, even for victims.

[*Shinzon*]

Some how AOE's post didn't show up for me until now, but he does make excellent points. I think the best point illustrating how people are different and there's just too much gray area to choose one position over the other.

[Khamsin]

2. It doesn't fucking work

Based on the link you provided, it clearly does.

1994 was the beginning of the sex offender registration program for most of the country (Jacob Wetterling Act) followed by Megan's Law in 1996.

According to your link, the forcible rape rate between 1986 (earliest the table goes) and 1994 (beginning of national sex offender registry) hovered between about 38-42. After 1994, it takes a sharp decline, going down each and every year from 39.3 down to 31.8 in 2001. Between 2001 and 2005 (latest the table goes), it hovered between about 31-33.

What about that table was supposed to suggest the sex offender list doesn't work?

True, there may be other reasons for the decline in forcible rape, but it certainly doesn't prove "it doesn't fucking work".

[test123]

howcome I can't find a white rapist?

[Day]

Smart enough not to get caught? I mean what kind of question is that.