Post Your Augmented Items IV: NPC it.

[Karbuncle]

None mine, again, but this retarded BRD PL talk is getting on my nerves, an entire page of no Augments would be blasphemous.

Anyway, half these people belong in a different thread but unfortunately they're in town, so look at their augments =D

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...8-13-12-78.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...8-16-47-42.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...8-15-04-37.jpg

[Despain]

Find it funny that those 2 thieves have TH4.

[ZhiGaruda]

Find it funny that those 2 thieves have TH4.

Actually, only one of them does.

[Karbuncle]

Only gimp THFs win Assn Armlets now adays

[Despain]

Actually, only one of them does.

Assuming the THF that doesn't have a Thief's Knife equipped has one in their inventory.

[Dooom]

Forget Armlets, is that an X's in the 3rd screenshot?

[Zer]

Hoping for a Behe knife D:

[FailureMidgard]

I agree with this. With a BRD PL either solo or with a group, I always prefer double minuet. Without double mins, my RNG @34 does about 70~ damage on avg., where as with double minuet, I break 200 on Rock Eaters in Grauberg. I also avg. 700 on barrage. Though RNG is a horrible example since I don't melee D: but still.

Huh? You didn't agree with a thing I said. But grats on preferring double minuet to double march on a job that gets 0 benefit from haste. As I said in my post, double march is still always better (because rangers aren't real people and don't do real damage). My only point is that increasing your haste can, at times, not change the kill time at all, same as attack. And even more importantly, the average is what matters, because attack will save -full swings- at times.

[pchan]

Example:
Person A swings at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14
Person B swings at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15
If it takes 11 hits to kill the mob, the mob dies at 15 seconds. If you suddenly make person A swing at 1.9, 3.8, 5.7, 7.6, 9.5, 11.4, 13.3, 15.2, that added haste did absolutely nothing at all.

It does change : i'll write the chronology of the fight using [] when person B hits and nothing when person A hits

chronology : 1.9 [3] 3.8 5.7 [6] 7.6 [9] 9.5 11.4 [12] 13.3 ([15] 15.2)

The mob is dying at 13.3 second mark, you saved 1.7 seconds which is 11.4% fight duration down. In the case of double march it's even stronger since the second player is also saving a hit. However your exemple is stupid since it saves a hit for player A.

edit : Basically with 100% accuracy (=your exemple) it's not possible for the +haste situation to have more duration than no haste situation. At worst it's equal. If you input the fact that accuracy is 95% at best, therefore the sequences above can have misses in them, you can find situations where the haste setup will require more duration than the second one ; however those events are less likely than the other way around and in the end, the haste one does reduce duration on average, even if haste only hit one player and not the second one.

[Despain]

Huh? You didn't agree with a thing I said. But grats on preferring double minuet to double march on a job that gets 0 benefit from haste. As I said in my post, double march is still always better (because rangers aren't real people and don't do real damage). My only point is that increasing your haste can, at times, not change the kill time at all, same as attack. And even more importantly, the average is what matters, because attack will save -full swings- at times.

Opps? I didn't read your entire post, my bad. If you noticed, I did point out that I was on RNG, therefore it didn't really matter. Wassup wassup.

Though RNG is a horrible example since I don't melee D: but still.

[Karbuncle]

Forget Armlets, is that an X's in the 3rd screenshot?

I Was too afraid to look but im assuming it was Behe/Misericorde.

though it could have easily of been X's Blau, he's just stupid and gimp enough to get those items 1/1

[FailureMidgard]

It does change : i'll write the chronology of the fight using [] when person B hits and nothing when person A hits

chronology : 1.9 [3] 3.8 5.7 [6] 7.6 [9] 9.5 11.4 [12] 13.3 ([15] 15.2)

The mob is dying at 13.3 second mark, you saved 1.7 seconds which is 11.4% fight duration down. In the case of double march it's even stronger since the second player is also saving a hit. However your exemple is stupid since it saves a hit for player A.

edit : Basically with 100% accuracy (=your exemple) it's not possible for the +haste situation to have more duration than no haste situation. At worst it's equal. If you input the fact that accuracy is 95% at best, therefore the sequences above can have misses in them, you can find situations where the haste setup will require more duration than the second one ; however those events are less likely than the other way around and in the end, the haste one does reduce duration on average, even if haste only hit one player and not the second one.

Wow, I typo'd 12 and put 11, lol. The 12th swing is at 15 seconds in both examples, which was my point. Sorry for the typo, the intent was clear. My example is 100% deadon for a situation when haste does "nothing". Also, adding accuracy doesn't change this, I can setup the exact same thing with any given accuracy value. That being said, you are correct that +haste is always equal to or better than nothing. But we're talking about attack vs haste. Let's use my above example.

Person A swings at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14
Person B swings at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15

Lets say a mob has 1150 HP, and we're hitting for 100 per hit (on both players). The mob is currently dying at 15 seconds. Adding 5% haste does nothing, as I've already shown. What if we make person A hit 15% harder? He now does 108 per hit...so his 7 hits are 756 damage, and just 4 hits from person B is 400 damage. That means before the last swing of person B, the mob has taken 1156 damage, and it dies at 14 seconds. Yes, I realize I said 5% haste, and 8% hitting harder. Haste is a stronger stat, I am not denying this at all, but you are being ignorant and wrong saying that attack/etc can not shorten fight duration. SOMETIMES it doesn't. But then again, as I've shown, SOMETIMES haste doesn't either. In the end you should go with which increases your average damage per second more, because on average (after killing many mobs), the attack/etc will save time, just like the haste does.


Again, sorry I typo'd, but you're still wrong, as always. Haste is always a better stat, attack is generally a pretty garbage stat for 2h DD, but attack can and does most definitely lower fight duration.

[NynJa]

I think a lot of people here are underestimating what adding 114 attack is doing when the mob only has about 100 defense to begin with, too much bukkake on haste goin on here. Double Minuet on a PLed target basically lets you hunt down EM-T mobs exclusively. What good is double march if youre hitting for 2-8 damage? Lower lvl WS's dont have the OOMPH impact they do at level 60+, and are basically a free hit.

[pchan]

SOMETIMES it doesn't. But then again, as I've shown, SOMETIMES haste doesn't either.

Nope, and that's the whole point of the discussion : in your example, any "boost" to attack that doesn't lower the number of hits needed from 12 exactly to <11 has no effect. This will happen regardless of the accuracy ; if you boost your pdif by less than 12/11=9%, you don't save a hit ( "on average", because pdif is also a random number ). Haste is completely different. As in your exemple, it can happen that it doesn't shorten the duration, but if you consider 95% accuracy and your exemple, you'll see that cases where the haste setup is faster are also probable, therefore it does increase killing speed on average :

your case = hitting 12x with no miss, this is 0.95^12=~ 60% likely : same killing speed.
other likely cases are when you miss 1 hit out of those 12 : 12*0.95^11*0.05=~38% likely. Both setup cover most cases obviously since the remaining cases are 2% likely. In the second case you have to include a miss in different setups.

*If the miss happens for player A the sequence will look like (the position of miss does not really matter, here the miss happens on A's 5th hit)
no haste : 2 [3] 4 6 [6] 8 [9] miss@12 [12] 14 [15] 16 18 [18] -> 18 seconds
haste : 1.9 [3] 3.8 5.7 [6] 7.6 [9] [email protected] 11.4 [12] 13.3 [15] 15.2 -> 15.2 seconds

*If the miss happens for player B the sequence will look like (the position of miss does not really matter, here the miss happens on B's 3rd hit)
no haste : 2 [3] 4 6 [6] 8 [miss@9] 12 [12] 14 [15] 16 18 [18] -> 18 seconds
haste : 1.9 [3] 3.8 5.7 [6] 7.6 [miss9] 9.5 11.4 [12] 13.3 [15] 15.2 -> 15.2 seconds

Basically, 60% of the time you don't save time, 40% of the time you save 2.8s which is 2.8/18=15%

=> on average in your setup the haste setup saves 60%*0+40%*15%=6%

Like I said, you can try all combinations while increasing the pdif by less 12/11=9% (actually if you only boost player A's attack you need a much better improvement in pdif, probably a bit less than 2x9%, but you get the idea), they will have no effect in saving a hit - so they don't speed up on average ; however, and that's where "overkill" appears, a parser will systermatically show the case when pdif <9% as a damage increase, while in reality it's not.

I think a lot of people here are underestimating what adding 114 attack is doing when the mob only has about 100 defense to begin with, too much bukkake on haste goin on here. Double Minuet on a PLed target basically lets you hunt down EM-T mobs exclusively. What good is double march if youre hitting for 2-8 damage? Lower lvl WS's dont have the OOMPH impact they do at level 60+, and are basically a free hit.

It's not a matter of WS frequency. As long as you require more than 1 hit, marches will easily win because it shortens the fighting duration even when you don't save a hit.

[FailureMidgard]

Nope, and that's the whole point of the discussion : in your example, any "boost" to attack that doesn't lower the number of hits needed from 12 exactly to <11 has no effect. This will happen regardless of the accuracy ; if you boost your pdif by less than 12/11=9%, you don't save a hit ( "on average", because pdif is also a random number ). Haste is completely different. As in your exemple, it can happen that it doesn't shorten the duration, but if you consider 95% accuracy and your exemple, you'll see that cases where the haste setup is faster are also probable, therefore it does increase killing speed on average :

your case = hitting 12x with no miss, this is 0.95^12=~ 60% likely : same killing speed.
other likely cases are when you miss 1 hit out of those 12 : 12*0.95^11*0.05=~38% likely. Both setup cover most cases obviously since the remaining cases are 2% likely. In the second case you have to include a miss in different setups.

*If the miss happens for player A the sequence will look like (the position of miss does not really matter, here the miss happens on A's 5th hit)
no haste : 2 [3] 4 6 [6] 8 [9] miss@12 [12] 14 [15] 16 18 [18] -> 18 seconds
haste : 1.9 [3] 3.8 5.7 [6] 7.6 [9] [email protected] 11.4 [12] 13.3 [15] 15.2 -> 15.2 seconds

*If the miss happens for player B the sequence will look like (the position of miss does not really matter, here the miss happens on B's 3rd hit)
no haste : 2 [3] 4 6 [6] 8 [miss@9] 12 [12] 14 [15] 16 18 [18] -> 18 seconds
haste : 1.9 [3] 3.8 5.7 [6] 7.6 [miss9] 9.5 11.4 [12] 13.3 [15] 15.2 -> 15.2 seconds

Basically, 60% of the time you don't save time, 40% of the time you save 2.8s which is 2.8/18=15%

=> on average in your setup the haste setup saves 60%*0+40%*15%=6%

Like I said, you can try all combinations while increasing the pdif by less 12/11=9% (actually if you only boost player A's attack you need a much better improvement in pdif, probably a bit less than 2x9%, but you get the idea), they will have no effect in saving a hit - so they don't speed up on average ; however, and that's where "overkill" appears, a parser will systermatically show the case when pdif <9% as a damage increase, while in reality it's not.

I'm not sure why I ever respond to you. I am not saying minuets beat marches. I am not saying attack beats haste. I am saying that attack has a chance to save swings, which you denied earlier:

No, haste reduces the killing time even if it doesn't save you a hit. Attack doesn't.

Haste is better, I 100% agree with you on that. I am just stating that this quote you have here is wrong. SOMETIMES it saves killing time, SOMETIMES it doesn't. Your own math agrees with me, yet you try to argue. Also, you full well know I can go create an array of swing timers given any accuracy, where haste will not reduce it. In fact, take the exact same example I gave, assume you miss 1 hit, and assume you need 11 hits to kill it? Exact same result I originally gave. There are an infinite number of layouts, and it's dumb to try to argue with 1. I can give 1 example that counters your statement that haste always reduces killing time even when it doesn't save a hit. And I can give 1 example that counters your statement that attack doesn't. Haste is still better than attack, universally, but your statements are ignorant and false.

[stewie]

I would just like to say I like your sig Fail.

[Hitoru]

I wish both of them would jump into a fucking fire and burn already. Stop shitting up threads with your dick-wagging.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I think a lot of people here are underestimating what adding 114 attack is doing when the mob only has about 100 defense to begin with, too much bukkake on haste goin on here. Double Minuet on a PLed target basically lets you hunt down EM-T mobs exclusively. What good is double march if youre hitting for 2-8 damage? Lower lvl WS's dont have the OOMPH impact they do at level 60+, and are basically a free hit.

Failure, do you take this into account? Attack matters significantly more at low levels.

If you did, nvm

[NynJa]

I cant tell if that was sarcasm or not, but if it was, fine I'll elaborate:
My taru mule, 18THF/9MNK without a weapon but capped H2H for the level (not buying a dagger off the AH to enforce my point) has 62 attack. Double minuets, 114 attack from a 75 bard without Minuet merits, almost TRIPLE your attack. See where I'm going? I'm not saying it matters more at lower levels, dont put words into my mouth.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I wasn't being sarcastic.. Attack matters a hell of a lot more at that level than later on, like how Mighty Rings > Vision Rings, etc.