Another math problem! (Not HW)

[Eliseos]

Heh, I still have a semester of sanity left. For my physics classes next semester, I'm taking Thermodynamics and Mechanics (both classes from the Physics department, not the classes from the civil/mechanical engineering schools). That'll at least give me a summer to get better with proof-based and theoretical answers. Glad I'll have my math all done before QM and E&M though, one of the guys in my class is taking E&M, and gets lost in all the math because his professor just assumes everyone knows Divergence/Stokes' theorem like the back of their hand.

[Woozie]

I really wish we had a proper introduction to linear algebra before quantum mechanics. We went from the retarded easy linear albegra classes in college (9 years ago for me), to the introduction of operators, eigenvalues, complex conjugates and hilbert space.

While none of these are particularly hard to calculate, we still skipped one or two classes worth of mathematics that give a meaning to these concepts. Hell, even now, 2 years later, I still have trouble to tell you what an eigen value is.

The fact that you were even able to do QM without recently doing linear algebra is pretty impressive. For some reason, linear algebra isn't even required for physics majors but QM is, and for this reason, most physics students here either struggle with it, or they never get a decent understanding of it. You should be proud of yourself. I honestly don't think I would have even been able to do it. At least not with a 9 year gap in between. Heck, it was hard enough going *directly* from linear algebra to QM, but that's partially because I skipped the undergrad level QM and went straight to grad stuff. But either way, I couldn't imagine doing any level QM without having linear algebra fresh in my mind.

To be honest, I kinda wish I had studied functional analysis before QM too. Going from finite vector spaces to functional spaces is rough even with a linear algebra background. I did manage to find a book on hilbert spaces written specifically for physics majors at a level that I could understand back then.

[Woozie]

Heh, I still have a semester of sanity left.

Based on your other posts (and this posts), I think you'll like the derivation/proof based math just as much as the numerical stuff. You seem like you have a stronger math background than most physics majors at your level, and you seem like you're naturally good in math. Like I said, the only reason this kind of stuff seems harder for you right now is because you're just not used to it. And if you really like math as much as you seem to, this way will be more fun in the end. Or at least it is to me.

Out of curiosity, what field of physics do you plan on getting into?

Same for you, Kaylia, what do you plan to study?

And joft, what kind of math are you getting your PhD in?

And Max, why the hell aren't you in college? Someone who loves physics as much as you do should have a job doing physics.

[Eliseos]

Based on your other posts (and this posts), I think you'll like the derivation/proof based math just as much as the numerical stuff. You seem like you have a stronger math background than most physics majors at your level, and you seem like you're naturally good in math. Like I said, the only reason this kind of stuff seems harder for you right now is because you're just not used to it. And if you really like math as much as you seem to, this way will be more fun in the end. Or at least it is to me.

Out of curiosity, what field of physics do you plan on getting into?

Same for you, Kaylia, what do you plan to study?

And joft, what kind of math are you getting your PhD in?

And Max, why the hell aren't you in college? Someone who loves physics as much as you do should have a job doing physics.

I appreciate the comment about my math ability, though as of right now I don't have a lot of faith in my abilities lol. Though I guess one of the main reasons why is this is the first semester of calculus I've taken since my freshman year almost four years ago. So since this past summer when I took Physics II, I've been trying to catch up on everything, and I think I'm nearly there in large part to this Vector Analysis class mostly reviewing Calc III up to this point.

As for what I want to get into after I graduate, Kryssan has me really interested in Nuclear Power. It's a very interesting subject, and I hope soon there will be a boom in demand for alternatives to coal as an energy source. I want to use the Computer Science and Electrical Engineering part of my degree also, perhaps developing new systems for nuclear plants. I'd also like to work for a private company developing systems used in space, or aeronautics.

Completely unrelated, I closed my Circuits II lab report this week (it's about transformers) citing time machines as a high-voltage household electronic device.

EDIT: Woozie, how much left do you have in school?

[Woozie]

EDIT: Woozie, how much left do you have in school?

Forever and a half.

Seriously, my first year of college was in 2005. I wont graduate at least until 2012. 7 freakin years. Then I'll have to go to grad school for 4~5 years. At this rate, I wont be done with school until I'm 30 x_x

Well, to be fair, the 7 year period includes a year where I dropped all my classes and a year where I didn't go to school at all. And when I graduate, I'll be getting three degrees, one of which will be a masters (in math). But still...every person I knew from high school either graduated last year or are graduating next semester. Everyone I knew when I lived on campus have graduated already.

I actually could probably graduate next semester (or next year at the latest) if it wasn't for my foreign language requirement and the fact that I'm going after three degrees instead of just one. But the earliest I can possibly fulfill my foreign language requirement without going to school in the summer (which I can't afford) is 2012.

These requirements seem so dumb to me. They say all this extra crap makes us more "well rounded". But lets be honest: How many people actually remember all that crap unrelated to their major that they had to take? How many physicist do you know that can speak Spanish and cite Shakespeare? How many economist know the difference between mitosis and meiosis? Look at how many people with college degrees can't help their kids with their algebra despite the fact that virtually every major has to take it. No one remembers the crap they were forced to take. I'm taking sign language as my language mainly because some people at my church (including my god daughter) will be able to help me with it.

Edit: It seems like with the stuff you're getting into, there may be a lot of numerical-based problems. To me, working with equations have always been easier, mainly because I suck at programming and the only numerical algorithms I'm even remotely familiar with is the finite element method and the Runge Kutta method (all that does is solve differential equations lol). I have to do a lot of applied physics at my job so I'm trying to get a little better at this kind of stuff. This one guy in my department knows all kinds of crazy methods for approximating all kinds of stuff I've never even heard of. I'd rather go into something theoretical than applied, but the job outlook for applied is just so much better.

[Eliseos]

Seriously, my first year of college was in 2005... But still...every person I knew from high school either graduated last year or are graduating next semester. Everyone I knew when I lived on campus have graduated already.

I know exactly how this is. Everyone that I know that I went to school at SC with, graduated this past year (I also started college in 05). I'll graduate after my 6th year in college, due to me not attending classes for a full year (I signed up for classes, and I went for half the semester, then stopped going for some reason or other and basically missed out on a year because I was very lazy). The excuse that I tell people is that I'm double majoring and minoring in an engineering field (which is partly the reason why it'll take longer, but yeah).

I can defend people having to take classes such as math and science, even if they aren't in a field remotely related to it, but I can't defend requiring liberal arts classes such as art, cultural diversity (my school requires at least 3 credits here), and other humanties. History and English are debatable, though by judging my friends English skills on Facebook, even the college ones, more classes should be required.

[Kaylia]

The fact that you were even able to do QM without recently doing linear algebra is pretty impressive. For some reason, linear algebra isn't even required for physics majors but QM is, and for this reason, most physics students here either struggle with it, or they never get a decent understanding of it. You should be proud of yourself. I honestly don't think I would have even been able to do it. At least not with a 9 year gap in between. Heck, it was hard enough going *directly* from linear algebra to QM, but that's partially because I skipped the undergrad level QM and went straight to grad stuff. But either way, I couldn't imagine doing any level QM without having linear algebra fresh in my mind.

To be honest, I kinda wish I had studied functional analysis before QM too. Going from finite vector spaces to functional spaces is rough even with a linear algebra background. I did manage to find a book on hilbert spaces written specifically for physics majors at a level that I could understand back then.

Well, my grade and comprehension are far from impresive in QM, but most of the class have the same issue (since our mathematicals background are fairly similar). On the bright side, I can pinpoint what I don't understand, and I can walk to the library and make up for it in a couple of weeks (months)...it's just that in the middle of a semester, thing tend to get nasty quickly. You often have to resort to selective studying to optimize your time/grade. It's not a bad thing though, this way, you're not allowed to slack, and you end up learning more than you would in an easy class.

I think every mathematicians and physicist out there went through something like this. There is so much to learn, and you have so little time. If we were spending a lot of time on everything, we would be 40 years old by the time we end school. You can't take physics (and mathematics) like you take class in any other department...if you have no dedication, there is no way you will get anywhere.

Also, jumping to grad QM without first class or two (there is 2 + modern physics here) is suicide. Simply getting used to the notation and everything take a whole class at least.

Same for you, Kaylia, what do you plan to study?

No idea. I love theoretical physics the most, but perspective for a future job are non existent (and teaching wouldn't suit me well, I would be terrible)...I'm probably going to end up at the hydrogen research department working as a physicist/programmer, since I also have a computer science major.

As long as I remain in a creative environment, I will be happy. I simply refuse to go back to programming user interface, webpage and shit like this...Programming numerical solution, simulation and stuff like this on the other hand is really fun (as long you have to works on the algorithm).

[Woozie]

I know exactly how this is. Everyone that I know that I went to school at SC with, graduated this past year (I also started college in 05). I'll graduate after my 6th year in college, due to me not attending classes for a full year (I signed up for classes, and I went for half the semester, then stopped going for some reason or other and basically missed out on a year because I was very lazy). The excuse that I tell people is that I'm double majoring and minoring in an engineering field (which is partly the reason why it'll take longer, but yeah).

I can defend people having to take classes such as math and science, even if they aren't in a field remotely related to it, but I can't defend requiring liberal arts classes such as art, cultural diversity (my school requires at least 3 credits here), and other humanties. History and English are debatable, though by judging my friends English skills on Facebook, even the college ones, more classes should be required.

Okay, I guess English and History and a few others makes sense depending on what exactly the course covers. I mean, I shouldn't have to read English literature, but English classes based on writing skills or a particular type of writing (like argumentative/persuasive writing) do make sense. But people who need these skills typically develop them as a result of the course work they do in their own major. I'll be able to type up my research for publication because I had to take so many labs and do a bunch of lab reports, not because of my English class.

History sort of makes sense. But since most colleges have a ton of possible history classes to take, many people take some obscure type of history of some culture or country that really doesn't make as much sense.

An example of someone taking something that could be useful and making it less useful would be me and my foreign language requirements. Learning another language could be useful in physics, but since I'm taking sign language instead of a language that could be useful, it defeats the purpose. So basically I'm going to end up spending 5 semesters for something that's of no use to me outside of speaking to a few people in my church (and no one in my church is *fully* deaf, so even then it's not all that useful). And besides, virtually every major physics publication is written or translated to English anyways.

As for people on facebook and such, I think there should be a mandatory "internet grammar" class that makes people type like they aren't retarded when they're on the internet. And the grade for that class shouldn't be given until they graduate, and it should be based on things they type online. That way they have to type properly at least until they graduate. And before graduating you should have to sign a contract to promise to type in a readable manner for the rest of your life or else your degree will be revoked.

Edit: Am I the only one here who sucks at numerical stuff? I failed java twice. Freakin Java. That has to be one of the hardest classes to fail. So needless to say, I don't know how to run calculations in Fortran or anything that mathematicians and physicist should know. Well, I'm somewhat familiar in matlab, but nowhere near where I should be considering I've been using it for two years at my job.

[Eliseos]

As long as I remain in a creative environment, I will be happy. I simply refuse to go back to programming user interface, webpage and shit like this...Programming numerical solution, simulation and stuff like this on the other hand is really fun (as long you have to works on the algorithm).

This is probably the major reason why I decided to double major with Physics and CS. I am generally not interested in what I code for my internship, so I need to do it for something that I am interested in. It's not that I hate my internship, it's just boring coding for something I just can't get in to.

And Woozie, 5 semesters for a foreign language? Fuck that. I guess I got lucky there, my high school "required" two semesters of a foreign language for anyone going to college, so I took Spanish and was done with it. I can see why that would make you bitter towards having to take a foreign language.

I'm also for history classes since I find it absolutely fascinating, but it's one of those subjects that you can't do much with unless if you want to be a historian or teach it, and the historian side is probably like trying to get into theoretical physics.

I know the actual Physics major at my university requires an english class called "Technical Writing" where they actually make you write lab reports and technical documents just based off of something else you have read. I think this would be great to take either the last year of college or right before it, to hammer out the smaller defects in your writing, since like you said, you'll pretty much have the fundamentals of reports down within the first few lab classes.

[Woozie]

If my school had the technical writing class in the english department, a required english class would make sense for science majors. But otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

My high school also required me to take foreign language, but oddly enough, they didn't require me to pass. If I had passed, I would only need two semesters in college instead of five.

[Kaylia]

I appreciate the comment about my math ability, though as of right now I don't have a lot of faith in my abilities lol. Though I guess one of the main reasons why is this is the first semester of calculus I've taken since my freshman year almost four years ago. So since this past summer when I took Physics II, I've been trying to catch up on everything, and I think I'm nearly there in large part to this Vector Analysis class mostly reviewing Calc III up to this point.
As for what I want to get into after I graduate, Kryssan has me really interested in Nuclear Power. It's a very interesting subject, and I hope soon there will be a boom in demand for alternatives to coal as an energy source. I want to use the Computer Science and Electrical Engineering part of my degree also, perhaps developing new systems for nuclear plants. I'd also like to work for a private company developing systems used in space, or aeronautics.

School is slightly different here, but it's almost exactly what happened to me (2 mandatory years in colleges, 3 years for a major in computer sciences, and I worked 1 year as a programmer). I eventualy realized I was missing school and went back to my first love, physics. That was 4-5 years without any calculus


If you're doing better than the rest of your class at the moment, I can say you're on the right track, because I had a lot of problem early. It felt like I was running behind everyone.


For your career, don't aim for anything in particular, or you will probably hit a brick wall at some point. Study physics because you love physics. I don't know anyone who ended where they wanted (most people give up halfway too). I'm not trying to scare you either, it's an awesome major imo, but I've seen so many people drop out it's not funny

These requirements seem so dumb to me. They say all this extra crap makes us more "well rounded". But lets be honest: How many people actually remember all that crap unrelated to their major that they had to take? How many physicist do you know that can speak Spanish and cite Shakespeare? How many economist know the difference between mitosis and meiosis? Look at how many people with college degrees can't help their kids with their algebra despite the fact that virtually every major has to take it. No one remembers the crap they were forced to take. I'm taking sign language as my language mainly because some people at my church (including my god daughter) will be able to help me with it.

It's because these classes are easy, and they can artificially boost your average using thing like this. Not to mention you can make bigger classes this way, meaning there is less teacher to hire.

I agree it's bullshit, especially considering how tight our schedule are compared to most department.

[Kaylia]

As for people on facebook and such, I think there should be a mandatory "internet grammar" class that makes people type like they aren't retarded when they're on the internet. And the grade for that class shouldn't be given until they graduate, and it should be based on things they type online. That way they have to type properly at least until they graduate. And before graduating you should have to sign a contract to promise to type in a readable manner for the rest of your life or else your degree will be revoked.

Edit: Am I the only one here who sucks at numerical stuff? I failed java twice. Freakin Java. That has to be one of the hardest classes to fail. So needless to say, I don't know how to run calculations in Fortran or anything that mathematicians and physicist should know. Well, I'm somewhat familiar in matlab, but nowhere near where I should be considering I've been using it for two years at my job.

I would fail my grammar classes in both french and english if I was doing them now. I'm glad it's behind me.

How do you fail java? Procrastinated thinking it was easy? It's generally why I bomb easy classes more than the one that require a lot of works.

If you need help with numerical stuff/programming, just send me a IM/PM. I'm not sure how much I could do, but there is a good chance I will be able to help.

[Sylvrdragon]

This thread has become depressing for me over this last page... Complaining that you might not graduate till you're 30... I'm already 27!!! Of course, if I'm anywhere close to as smart as I think I am, then with a shit load of hard work and dedication, I can hopefully close (some of) the gap between myself and those in my age group who have already been in a field for several years... maybe... I also wanna try to take classes all year round and cut a couple years off instead of taking summers off.

Do colleges have any kinda way to "test out" of certain courses? It would be nice if I could study the material independently and skip a course here and there.

[Eliseos]

This thread has become depressing for me over this last page... Complaining that you might not graduate till you're 30... I'm already 27!!! Of course, if I'm anywhere close to as smart as I think I am, then with a shit load of hard work and dedication, I can hopefully close (some of) the gap between myself and those in my age group who have already been in a field for several years... maybe... I also wanna try to take classes all year round and cut a couple years off instead of taking summers off.

Do colleges have any kinda way to "test out" of certain courses? It would be nice if I could study the material independently and skip a course here and there.

This isn't meant to discourage you or anything, but I can tell you from experience summer classes are 10x harder than the classes during normal semesters. You are given half the time to learn the same material, which means you are studying your ass off when you aren't in class. I took a physics course over the summer while working 40 hours a week. The only time I had to study was when I got home at 9PM at night and on the weekends, and this is only taking one class. If it's something that you can take time off of work for, I would say go for it, but limit it to at most 2 or 3 classes.

And about testing out, you can usually test out of the easier things like math (they'll place you anywhere from pre-algebra to somewhere in the calculus classes), english, and sometimes foreign languages. The only other credit you'd be able to receive for testing out would be something like AP credit, but you would have had to have taken those tests in high school, and would have to have a certain score to get college credit.

[Kaylia]

I also wanna try to take classes all year round and cut a couple years off instead of taking summers off.

If it's sciences, don't think about it. You will just get burnt out. You can handle 1 maybe, but don't go for 3 full semesters per year, it's not human. If you're working at the same time, forget it. I'm sure there is super-human that are exception to this rule, but probability dictacte that it's most likely not you.


Unless you have experience in the field, there is no way to skip class as far as I know. It'a possible to skip college here (first year or two?) though, but even then, I wouldn't recommend it unless you're absolutely certain that you can do it.

[Woozie]

Procrastination and personal issues are only part of the reason I failed Java. Part of it was because I honestly could not understand it even when I was trying. It really was too hard for me.

This year there's a different teacher and I have one of the highest grades on the class as of right now. So it could mean Java isn't too hard for me afterall and it was just the teacher, or it could mean I really do suck in java and the only reason I'm doing better this time is because I took it twice already.

@Sylvrdragon: Almost every college has testing procedures already in place for lower level classes. At my college, testing out of stuff that isn't freshman level is harder because there often aren't any testing procedures put in place for those. Here they'll usually come up with something like "when finals come around you take their final exam. if you pass, you get to bypass the course" or "Instead of testing out, we'll allow you to enroll in something this is a prereq for. If you pass, you get to bypass the prereqs, the prereqs of the prereqs, etc". So for example, If someone wanted to test out of precalc, calc1, and calc 2, they could just take and pass calc 3.

[Eliseos]

This year there's a different teacher and I have one of the highest grades on the class as of right now. So it could mean Java isn't too hard for me afterall and it was just the teacher, or it could mean I really do suck in java and the only reason I'm doing better this time is because I took it twice already.

Honestly, I was never able to learn as well in my programming classes when I had a shitty instructor. If they aren't teaching you exactly what each function does, what a class is good/bad for, proper code technique, etc, you're bound to get really confused. There was a thread here a few weeks ago where someone had a programming assignment due, and the teacher didn't follow a book, didn't write notes on the board, and only vaguely explained things by showing the class his own code. The first couple semesters of java are a lot harder than anything after that, mostly because of how much they throw at you right away. It's not one of those things that you can progressively get better at, one day you'll just get one of those "I got it" moments, and you'll be noticeably better at it and understand it.

[Kaylia]

Procrastination and personal issues are only part of the reason I failed Java. Part of it was because I honestly could not understand it even when I was trying. It really was too hard for me.

This year there's a different teacher and I have one of the highest grades on the class as of right now. So it could mean Java isn't too hard for me afterall and it was just the teacher, or it could mean I really do suck in java and the only reason I'm doing better this time is because I took it twice already.

It has to be the teacher mixed with some outside elements. Programming is just arithmetics mixed with middle school understanding of set, and I'm absolutely certain you have everything you need to understand it with a math/physics major. It must have been a little something that prevented you from doing well (probably because the teacher failled at giving proper exemple to people who are used to thing much more complex than this, and you were overthinking the problem)


Out of curiosity, did you have any issues understanding pseudo-code? Object/classes concept? The actual programming language?

[Jefe]

I've had my share of crappy programming instructors. However, programming is something I like to do... to a certain extent. In other words, I like it enough to do work on my own and figure things out. That has helped me greatly w/ the aforementioned shitty instructors. Furthermore, yeah, if one chooses a major such as engineering, which have heavy Physics and Math, it takes way longer to graduate. Just to put it into perspective. Business majors take about 70ish or so units at my Uni (quarter sys), engineering majors have to take 200 units... I'm almost done tho.

Last, for some reason the majority of Physics instructors frown upon math, chem, or those types of majors lol.

[Kaylia]

I've had my share of crappy programming instructors. However, programming is something I like to do... to a certain extent. In other words, I like it enough to do work on my own and figure things out. That has helped me greatly w/ the aforementioned shitty instructors. Furthermore, yeah, if one chooses a major such as engineering, which have heavy Physics and Math, it takes way longer to graduate. Just to put it into perspective. Business majors take about 70ish or so units at my Uni (quarter sys), engineering majors have to take 200 units... I'm almost done tho.

Last, for some reason the majority of Physics instructors frown upon math, chem, or those types of majors lol.

I never had a physics teacher frown upon maths. Sure, there is occasional jokes about the excessive formalism, or when you deal with infinity and discontinuity, but you would need to be retarded to say anything bad seriously.

I don't know, every time I take maths and physics class, it feels like both are BFF. Maths teacher constantly talk about application in physics, and physics teacher constantly refer to different type of mathematics and demonstration. Chemistry and engineering on the other hands...they just act nice when they are around.


About programming, learning on your own work, but it help to have a push on your first program. If the base isn't solid, it's hard to build on top of it.