For BG fitness fanatics, a question..

[archibaldcrane]

My body got mad at me this weekend and now I have a cold to show for it, pisses me off.

[BiggestofBismarck]

In an effort to find out what overtraining really is, I'm about to start on this split:
A day
Flat bench
Incline DB press
SOHP
Tri pulldown
Dips to failurex3

B day
Squat
Deadlift(second B day of each week)
Bent row
Lat pulldown
Pullups to failurex3(neutral grip)


M T W R F Sa Su
A B A B A B


I'm going to see if I can pull that off for three weeks and if I can, keep going...thoughts?

Overtraining doesn't take that long to feel. First you should try doing a workout that actually has a purpose. What you posted is rather random and easy. Unless you plan on doing 5+ sets with 10+ reps for each excercise. The effects of overtraining are not very enjoyable. Try this workout for three days and tell us how you feel.

Day 1:
Incline DB press 5x8 use 80% 1RPM 1min rest between sets
Flat bench press 5x10 use 70% 1RPM 2min rest between sets
Incline flye + Flat flye SS 3x15 2min rest between sets
Cable cross FST (look it up)
Close grip bench press 5x8 1min rest between sets
Weighted dips + body weight dips SS 3x8 + 3xF 2min rest between sets
Overhead extension 3x12 1min rest between sets
Underhand pushdown 3x15 1min rest between sets

Day 2:
Close grip pulldown (warm-up) 3x12 long rest between sets allowing stretch time
Wide grip pull-up + Wide underhand pull-up + Close grip pull-up + Close underhand pull-up
3xF for all with 3min rest between sets
Barbell bent row 4x8 2min rest between sets
One-arm DB row 4x8 2min between sets
Deadlift 5x10 use 60% 1RPM 3min rest between sets
Rope cable row 3x15 2min rest between sets

Day 3:
Leg extension 3x15 (warm-up) rest as needed with time for stretching
Leg press 4x12 use 80% 1RPM 2min rest between sets
Squat SS 3x8/F/F use 80% 1RPM/60% 1RPM/50% 1RPM 3min rest between sets
Smith lunges 3x12 2min rest between sets
Lying leg curl 4x12 2min rest between sets
Seated leg curl 3x12 2min rest between sets
Romanian deadlift 3x12 2min rest between sets
Standing calf raise 4x12 2min rest between sets
Seated calf raise 3x12 2min rest between sets

When you wake up on the fourth day, let us know how you feel. And please drink lots of water and eat well. I don't want you to be incapable of telling us.

[Meat]

ozz is a pt and has probably spent more time in the gym than a lot of ppl here. he's no fool

[ozz]

definitely not a PT lol

Squats and deadlifts, 3 times a week?

Either you've never done these 2 exercises before, or you're not doing them right.... otherwise you'd already know that you will never pull that off for more than a week. Two weeks if you have a really high tolerance for not being able to move.

Pointless test is pointless.

On another topic, the stretching debate is interesting. I saw an article posted on a another forum I go to.

Um, squats 3 times a week, deadlifts once, its a pretty standard part of SS

Day 1:
Incline DB press 5x8 use 80% 1RPM 1min rest between sets
Flat bench press 5x10 use 70% 1RPM 2min rest between sets
Incline flye + Flat flye SS 3x15 2min rest between sets
Cable cross FST (look it up)
Close grip bench press 5x8 1min rest between sets
Weighted dips + body weight dips SS 3x8 + 3xF 2min rest between sets
Overhead extension 3x12 1min rest between sets
Underhand pushdown 3x15 1min rest between sets

Underhand pushdown=tri pulldown?
I can't do overhead extensions, I have a problem with my elbow
I'll add fly's
If I'm not burnt by that point I'll do cablecross
Also I'm not planning on doing more than 8 reps per set on anything

Day 2:
Close grip pulldown (warm-up) 3x12 long rest between sets allowing stretch time
Wide grip pull-up + Wide underhand pull-up + Close grip pull-up + Close underhand pull-up
3xF for all with 3min rest between sets
Barbell bent row 4x8 2min rest between sets
One-arm DB row 4x8 2min between sets
Deadlift 5x10 use 60% 1RPM 3min rest between sets
Rope cable row 3x15 2min rest between sets

Is this so much different than my day 2? I can't do 12 sets of any form of pullup to failure, I mean I guess by definition I can but the last 5 or 6 sets would probably only be 2 or 4 reps

Day 3:
Leg extension 3x15 (warm-up) rest as needed with time for stretching
Leg press 4x12 use 80% 1RPM 2min rest between sets
Squat SS 3x8/F/F use 80% 1RPM/60% 1RPM/50% 1RPM 3min rest between sets
Smith lunges 3x12 2min rest between sets
Lying leg curl 4x12 2min rest between sets
Seated leg curl 3x12 2min rest between sets
Romanian deadlift 3x12 2min rest between sets
Standing calf raise 4x12 2min rest between sets
Seated calf raise 3x12 2min rest between sets

Leg day? I'd rather incorporate legs with my B day, they're usually wobbly after I squat and dead, not sure what doing 8 extra lifts would do for me there



I'm really just trying to do SS except minus the rest days on T and R



Edit:: But if you really think it'd half kill me, I'll start my plan next week and yours tomorrow, Friday being day 4

[Atreides]

I think overtraining is definitely something people make too big of a deal about, but only so far as people saying "I think I'm overtraining" when in reality they're pretty much novices who aren't sleeping enough or eating enough calories and that's why their lifts are stalling out.

Although, both of those plans seem like way too much. I never quite understood why people make these huge, elaborate workout plans when there's no conceivable way they're ever going to be able to increase the weight their lifting for even half the lifts on a consistent basis.

Also, by SS do you mean Starting Strength? They pretty much tell you not to really add much beyond basic accessory work because too much extra stuff will zap your progress in the main lifts, and linear progression at the rate which SS has you advancing (particularly on the upper body lifts) is hard to keep up with if your abs/arms/lower back are sore. I don't think it's a matter of overtraining so much as it is making sure your body recovers enough in time to add 5-10 lbs every time you step up to the bar, which is tough enough for most people on the plan even with adequate rest and nutrition.

Also to whoever said it earlier, there's no reason why you can't squat 3x a week, even if you're unfamiliar with the exercise. SS has you deadlifting 1-2x a week as well, which is a lift that beginners can see massive increases in strength in a very short amount of time (sometimes up to 20-30 lbs a week for your first 3 or so weeks).

[Tyche]

Overtraining/overuse is one of the biggest, if not the leading, causes of runners getting injured. It's very real and very much the reason that running programs are designed the way they are with the gradual increases in mileage.

[Atreides]

it's pretty much the opposite for weightlifting lol

[sephir]

For best workout results (at least with strength and endurance) it is best to stop before you bonk. When you stop working out you should feel like you have the ability to do 10% more.

If you do workout to the point of bonking out, you will lose fitness and actually experience a decline regardless of caloric/protein intake. Overtraining happens quite often with endurance athletes and is quite severe. It will inhibit your performance and result in you regressing in terms of your efforts. The best athletes in the world have learned to listen to their bodies and know when to stop and when to take a rest.

Grow periods happen in rest cycles. Be sure to take advantage of these, and when your body feels tired don't work out as you will do more harm than good.

[archibaldcrane]

Overtraining/overuse is one of the biggest, if not the leading, causes of runners getting injured. It's very real and very much the reason that running programs are designed the way they are with the gradual increases in mileage.

Running and lifting are very different beasts.

Spoiler: show

one is dumb, arbitrary and terrible and the other is not

[Tyche]

I wouldn't even know how to load a bar with weights.

[Tyche]

Running and lifting are very different beasts.

Spoiler: show

one is dumb, arbitrary and terrible and the other is not

Mad that you talked srs shit and went out like a bitch at LA.

[BiggestofBismarck]

Over-training is very real and if severe enough, very painful. Depending on your activity and frequency, it can happen very quickly. You can relate it to dehydration. There are various and differing levels. But the most severe can be life threatening. I wouldn't strive for it.

[ozz]

I think overtraining is definitely something people make too big of a deal about, but only so far as people saying "I think I'm overtraining" when in reality they're pretty much novices who aren't sleeping enough or eating enough calories and that's why their lifts are stalling out.

Although, both of those plans seem like way too much. I never quite understood why people make these huge, elaborate workout plans when there's no conceivable way they're ever going to be able to increase the weight their lifting for even half the lifts on a consistent basis.

Also, by SS do you mean Starting Strength? They pretty much tell you not to really add much beyond basic accessory work because too much extra stuff will zap your progress in the main lifts, and linear progression at the rate which SS has you advancing (particularly on the upper body lifts) is hard to keep up with if your abs/arms/lower back are sore. I don't think it's a matter of overtraining so much as it is making sure your body recovers enough in time to add 5-10 lbs every time you step up to the bar, which is tough enough for most people on the plan even with adequate rest and nutrition.

Also to whoever said it earlier, there's no reason why you can't squat 3x a week, even if you're unfamiliar with the exercise. SS has you deadlifting 1-2x a week as well, which is a lift that beginners can see massive increases in strength in a very short amount of time (sometimes up to 20-30 lbs a week for your first 3 or so weeks).

Yes, starting strength...and I tried not to add too many things, the only reason I'm trying to do the workouts more often than is standard for SS is...for the next 4 months I don't have any serious duties and my food is paid for, so I can eat and sleep as much as I want lol

lower back soreness is the only thing I'm really worried about, thats the only struggle I have when doing heavy 3x squat/1x deadlift per week, my lower back gets tired

[archibaldcrane]

Mad that you talked srs shit and went out like a bitch at LA.

Who wants to run marathons anyway? Running is terrible.

[Atreides]

I mean... SS definitely isn't something where you do it more often and get more benefit, pretty much the opposite. It's a program that's specifically designed to let your muscles recover just enough between workouts, and even with proper nutrition/rest almost everyone experiences stalls at one point or another.

If I were you I'd stick to the plan as indicated 3 days a week, and just concentrate on increasing the amount of weight you're lifting. If you start doing the plan more often and adding all sorts of exercises you're not doing the plan anymore, just your own creation.

99% of the time when people don't see results on SS it's because they modify the hell out of it. These people are PHD's who have taken thousands of lanky high school/college kids and packed serious muscle on them about as fast as their bodies will allow. Would you go to a 5-Star restaurant and start adding all sorts of shit to your entree?

[Serif]

Mad that you talked srs shit and went out like a bitch at LA.

Gave me a good chuckle

[Tyche]

Who wants to run marathons anyway? Running is terrible.

like a bitch.

[Headspace]

Hmm, I'm looking at the SS routine, and it's pretty different than what I'm doing now. Would it be worth trying out this routine? I've never done deadlifts or squats really (I've tried squats but can't get the balance or form right), and frankly hesitant to try them out as I'm afraid I'll screw the form and and injure myself.

I also probably cna't do the recommended chin ups or dips, so would it be worth it or continuing what I've been doing with more iso shit?

[ozz]

I mean... SS definitely isn't something where you do it more often and get more benefit, pretty much the opposite. It's a program that's specifically designed to let your muscles recover just enough between workouts, and even with proper nutrition/rest almost everyone experiences stalls at one point or another.

If I were you I'd stick to the plan as indicated 3 days a week, and just concentrate on increasing the amount of weight you're lifting. If you start doing the plan more often and adding all sorts of exercises you're not doing the plan anymore, just your own creation.

99% of the time when people don't see results on SS it's because they modify the hell out of it. These people are PHD's who have taken thousands of lanky high school/college kids and packed serious muscle on them about as fast as their bodies will allow. Would you go to a 5-Star restaurant and start adding all sorts of shit to your entree?

ok, you win, ill just do that

[Atreides]

Hmm, I'm looking at the SS routine, and it's pretty different than what I'm doing now. Would it be worth trying out this routine? I've never done deadlifts or squats really (I've tried squats but can't get the balance or form right), and frankly hesitant to try them out as I'm afraid I'll screw the form and and injure myself.

I also probably cna't do the recommended chin ups or dips, so would it be worth it or continuing what I've been doing with more iso shit?

SS is a great plan for people new to weightlifting in general, as it's great for building strength and teaches you the fundamentals of compound lifts like the squat/deadlift. The SS wiki as well as youtube are great places to find out info on form, which isn't too bad as long as you take the time to research it beforehand. You can even post videos of yourself squatting on their website (which is free) and have your form critiqued.

If form is really all that's stopping you, you should definitely just take the time to read up on the lifts and go for it. To a certain extent your progress will ultimately be limited if your form is bad, as the plan adds weight very very quickly and you won't be able to keep up if your body isn't going through the motion properly.

You actually don't add in chin-ups/dips until you're firmly entrenched on the plan and 100% sure that accessory work won't screw up your bench/overhead press progress, I don't think they even recommend you do crunches (sore abs can really wreak havoc on your core tightness, which in turn can hurt your progress on most of the lifts, and squats/deadlifts already work your abs pretty hard). Eventually you can slowly add in stuff like chinups/pullups/dips but it's accessory work, not the main course.

Most people are put off by the lack of direct arm work in the program, but if the goal is increasing the weight on the compound olympic lifts by 10-20 lbs per week you really won't miss it. Too much arm work and you'll kill your bench press/overhead press progress, and adding 5-10 lbs to each 1-2x per week is a significant increase that you'll want to try to keep going as long as possible.

Oh and stick to the plan as closely as possible. There are variations out there that use Pendlay Rows instead of Power Cleans (because it's a lot easier to learn Pendlay Rows than a fast explosive motion like the power clean, and not everyone has bumper plates-- not that you really need them) but I'd do Power Cleans if possible, otherwise that's the only alteration I'd make. People add in all sorts of stuff or substitute one exercise for another, the results of which are generally never favorable.