Maintaining Strong LS Leadership

[Vytiss]

That's exactly what I say when Vytiss comes at me with this fabrications. There's no evidence to back him besides the simple fairy tale he's created in his own mind.

fact: you abused Suterusu's admin to nuke our forums
fact: you abused Suterusu's admin to create false admins on ventrillo
fact: you used Suterusu's knowledge of LS bank info to steal gil, items, dynamis currency, and JoL popsets.
fact: you used Suterusu's account (or he did) to sell previously stated items (which every1 saw on ffxiah immediately after your transfer)
fact: you bragged about stealing the bank on Fairy chat
fact: you're a whore... and a prime example of where e-girlfriends can go wrong for a linkshell leader.
fact: you're "selfless leadership" is merely a ploy to other means... you're linkshell(s) will soon discover. From what I hear, they already are sick of you.
fiction: you are a hot chick and never bought a ventrillo mic because you were worried it would be too distracting for the linkshell.
fact: I don't fabricate, nor stalk... I call a spade a spade and am just making sure your title of DramaLlama loot whore follows you wherever you go.
fact: Jamchan, Jammalama, Jammeh, Frank, Pat.... doesn't matter what you change your name to, people know you're not really a chick.

[Vytiss]

Last words about this, I promise.

craaaap, ok... maybe i lied about this statement ^^
at least I'll admit to it.

[Shamaya]

Stop derailing . I'll go back and skim what you guys wrote and if it looks juicy enough then maybe I'll come back and take this back. I think it's fair enough though to let each of the participants in this debate make one last post on the issue should they wish, and if so make it good, and let that be that.


On track, In almost every post I read, I'm consistently seeing people talk about personal qualities and skills, or the coordination of members. That it seems that this is much more important than a shell's infrastructure in determining success. My point of view is probably too naive. I value low numbers, charisma, virtues like patience, excellence at the game, and more. But yeah it is kind of my hope that these things are icing on the cake of what could otherwise by itself be a very competitive and productive enterprise. Kind of like how gear is great and and all, but most things in the game can be done with mediocre gear in the correct hands. I suppose the idea of a self-sufficient LS that can operate independently, productively, and consistently even in the absence of its founder or charismatic head (a business/machine model) is as such a naive notion.

When I think about most linkshells I've been in and most that people are talking about, I feel as if they are "dependent." Dependent in the way that spouse/partner is when we use the term. That the foundation of the shell depends too much on the patience and personal abilities of the heads, or the good chemistry of the members, and couldn't survive otherwise; and is, as such, a dependent as opposed to independent entity. Not "strong" in the sense I'm seeking.
edit: I'd say Wrish and Byphareast pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as the vein of thought I was seeking. (not to say there haven't been several other good reads)

[jammalamma]

While I understand your concerns that leaders deciding their own salaries is a recipe for corruption, many have also said that omitting this salary leads to burnout and the shell breaking. IRL, we have checks and balances, such as a board of directors determining corporate executive pay, but I can't think of a graceful way to implement that in-game.

Can we not rely on free market forces? As long as compensation from the top down is clearly codified and open, people can choose whether to join/stay in the shell, and that means there must be a "cash-out" provision so that members can divest earnings from a shell where the rules or management have soured beyond bearing.

If Max was able to run a shell, doesn't that mean his members agreed his compensation was fair?

The privileges of being a leader, deciding policy and deciding who gets what should be enough to satisfy the increased amount of responsibility that comes with being a leader. But when a leader starts saying that they should get more because they are a leader, and they made the decision to be the leader, then how are they going to manage to keep a shell together? I know some shells do work like this, but they usually fall apart once that dictator decides to leave for whatever reason.

But the whole Max issue, it wasn't really a thing about fairness. Pretty much the LS tried to bribe him to stay by giving him the next abody since he was demoted from his position. He took it and still left. His leaving had little influence on anything since he was virtually a useless person, but it was hardly a decision any of the members had a say in. But of course, if you join an LS and remain in it, then there's a few things. You either do believe that the policy is fair or you have no where else to go. Some people don't mind being used.

But as for relying on free market sources, isn't that what already happens? People choose the LS that they believe is best worth their investment. On some servers the competition is very healthy and the free market works. On others, it doesn't because there simply is no competition.

As for this

fact: you abused Suterusu's admin to nuke our forums

Admin Log?

fact: you abused Suterusu's admin to create false admins on ventrillo

Admin Log?

fact: you used Suterusu's knowledge of LS bank info to steal gil, items, dynamis currency, and JoL popsets.

I had the actual bank for a long time and didn't steal anything. You can't even agree as to when I supposedly stole it, nor explain how I supposedly managed to transfer the items.

fact: you used Suterusu's account (or he did) to sell previously stated items (which every1 saw on ffxiah immediately after your transfer)

If you did indeed see this, where's your evidence? Screenshot? Or are you going to just say somebody else who's just as frustrated as you and didn't like me either because they lost a lot on something saw it too?

fact: you bragged about stealing the bank on Fairy chat

Screen shot? You can take a screen shot of POL chats easily. Wouldn't it make sense that if such admittance to guild actually existed you'd create document containing it? Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe you're making this all up.

fact: you're a whore... and a prime example of where e-girlfriends can go wrong for a linkshell leader.

Sounds like somebody is just bitter.

fact: you're "selfless leadership" is merely a ploy to other means... you're linkshell(s) will soon discover. From what I hear, they already are sick of you.

There's virtually nothing I want or ask for. So what other things am I trying to extort as you claim?

fiction: you are a hot chick and never bought a ventrillo mic because you were worried it would be too distracting for the linkshell.

That's correct, this is fiction. I do have a mic, I've used it before. But why should I be expected to use it all the time when I obviously don't have to?

fact: I don't fabricate, nor stalk... I call a spade a spade and am just making sure your title of DramaLlama loot whore follows you wherever you go.

Your obsession with me is sick. You need help. No need for you to tell people the obvious about me and what I openly tell them myself, I love drama. But a loot whore? The record speaks otherwise when you compare what I want and get to what everybody else wants and gets.

fact: Jamchan, Jammalama, Jammeh, Frank, Pat.... doesn't matter what you change your name to, people know you're not really a chick.

You act like I'm trying to run away from my past or something. The name's still Jam, and I'll still smoke you like a ham. I still have the same youtube account, still make videos, and still post under the same forum accounts I did.

[Shamaya]

Might need confirmation on that final point using the same method CreamSoda used in this thread? (and that Kaytie failed to do in this thread)
edit: BG has no "flame core" equivalent to split threads towards for people to hash out their menstruation battles :/

[isladar]

GTFO with your shitty drama, both of you.

[Furionstormrage]

GTFO with your shitty drama, both of you.

Dear god thank you, this was a really interesting thread until it got all shitted up with personal drama.

The moment you start doing favors for your best friend you wouldn't do for any other member, is the moment people will hold it against you and will lose respect.

Very good advice, it holds true.

Two of my very best friends IRL (I've been friends with them for 12 and 22 years, respectively) are part of my LS, an integral part no less, but I treat them exactly like I treat every other member. They don't expect special treatment and everyone knows that I don't give them special treatment.

[yotevol]

GTFO with your shitty drama, both of you.

Yay! Isladar to the rescue! :D

[TelosIllumini]

I suppose the idea of a self-sufficient LS that can operate independently, productively, and consistently even in the absence of its founder or charismatic head (a business/machine model) is as such a naive notion.

When I think about most linkshells I've been in and most that people are talking about, I feel as if they are "dependent." Dependent in the way that spouse/partner is when we use the term. That the foundation of the shell depends too much on the patience and personal abilities of the heads, or the good chemistry of the members, and couldn't survive otherwise; and is, as such, a dependent as opposed to independent entity. Not "strong" in the sense I'm seeking.
edit: I'd say Wrish and Byphareast pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as the vein of thought I was seeking. (not to say there haven't been several other good reads)

Well, this is a very productive ideal which requires a lot of involvement from your members. With a strong core group of players, they may take it upon themselves to organize an event when in the absence of an actual leader (we had our members run events from time to time before, when none of the leaders could be present).

This does require having highly motivated and committed members who know the rules, strats and administration as well as a leader does.

All in all, I don't think it's a naive linkshell model you have there, but having motivated members you can trust is really the key here.
I think a leader's role in such an environment would be, first and foremost, that of a group manager, who can get people motivated for a common cause, rather than the boss who pays their checks. (So yeah, social skills are really important here.)

[Onorgul]

The problem I've consistently run into is that the sort of people who will take up the reins and lead, either as the original leader or in the absence of that person, are not exactly the best team players. Someone who is a natural lieutenant can rise to the occasion with minimal fuss, but if you want to make a linkshell of independent-minded and self-sufficient people, egos are going to get bruised fast. I'd say the best one can hope for is to have a handful of lieutenant-types because a linkshell composed of multiple CEO-types is going to be a brewpot for drama and inefficiency. All it'll take is for one drop to go to the "wrong" person and it'll turn into a 3-hour argument of who does more and who is more important and who benefits most, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

[TelosIllumini]

Haha yeah, also true. I've been very fortunate to have lead a dynamis + limbus linkshell with clear rules that started from a social group + extra friends, and although there are strong personalities in there, none of the "core group" would try to abuse such a position. I suppose it really depends on the kind of shell you're running and the kind of people that are in it :/

As you put it, you don't want a bunch of CEOs in there, you're absolutely right with your post.

[Andri]

Actually the Vytiss-Jamchan argument is very much on topic - as hard as it is to read through all the hatred on Vytiss' part and all the bullshit on Jamchan's end.

Jamchan was a very polarizing force in her previous linkshell. She and 1-2 buddies were extremely offensive to other members, which caused the large rifts in the linkshell you see in this thread. It was the linkshell leadership's inability to get her under control that lead to the massive fighting you see now, and the accusations of bank stealing, name-calling.

Sometimes you can have the best intentions with your leaders but when they are morally weak, love drama, and are willing to look the other way in the face of some of your members being bullied and ostracized by one person, it really doesn't matter how much you are compensating them. No amount you pay them can make this fun for a regular member.

(P.S. I am not some QQing member trying to add 2 cents, I used to be in the LS when all this occurred. I run my own fairly successful linkshell now.)

[liggy 0]

What's going on in here...

something that should have went player warning thread, about a year ago lol.

Actually the Vytiss-Jamchan argument is very much on topic - as hard as it is to read through all the hatred on Vytiss' part and all the bullshit on Jamchan's end.

then you might as well ask all the "burnt-out" thieving leaders to post here as well....Well those arrogant enough to post how to be great a leader they are and others should take a model from, yet can in no way believe in what they post.

If people think this post got off course, sorry(from me at least about my members unintentional derail). It's just a slap in the face to see jam's post. I like some didn't care. at least till he brought up my personal life =/. very low indeed, but still awesome post on how leader should be. PITY ME, since everyone knows now, ty..



On topic topic, has anyone gone with a high tolerance policy and still functioning at full speed?(i was never one for breaking pearls) i understand there are rules and guidelines that must be followed. i'm just trying to get my head around what to do with old players who have lost interest and are waiting for flails to make their day and all these new gen players who can't cut the mustard when it comes to the endgame dedication we had before the concept of "in before dying game" was even a plausible phrase to associate with FF lol.

Usually high tolerance shells turn social and nazi shells implode when shit happens. i'm just trying to keep us functional without stalls or resorting to low-manning everything.

i am blessed with members who can keep playing like this, but relying on respect and the open arms of friendship/camaraderie of the core group will eventually die when people move on.

[Kerberoz]

On topic topic, has anyone gone with a high tolerance policy and still functioning at full speed?(i was never one for breaking pearls) i understand there are rules and guidelines that must be followed. i'm just trying to get my head around what to do with old players who have lost interest and are waiting for flails to make their day and all these new gen players who can't cut the mustard when it comes to the endgame dedication we had before the concept of "in before dying game" was even a plausible phrase to associate with FF lol.

They can survive if the leaders have a high tolerance(or lack of care) for constant, repeated failure and just keep recruiting and cycling in more faceless noobs when the old ones burn out... definitely not "full speed" though.

[Alibeemac]

On topic topic, has anyone gone with a high tolerance policy and still functioning at full speed?(i was never one for breaking pearls) i understand there are rules and guidelines that must be followed. i'm just trying to get my head around what to do with old players who have lost interest and are waiting for flails to make their day and all these new gen players who can't cut the mustard when it comes to the endgame dedication we had before the concept of "in before dying game" was even a plausible phrase to associate with FF lol.

Usually high tolerance shells turn social and nazi shells implode when shit happens. i'm just trying to keep us functional without stalls or resorting to low-manning everything.

i am blessed with members who can keep playing like this, but relying on respect and the open arms of friendship/camaraderie of the core group will eventually die when people move on.

We don't like breaking pearls. We have done it but only in extreme situations of breaking LS rules etc or if someone on trial just basically isn't cutting it on attendance/attitude etc.

We like having our older 'inactive' members around. The way we see it is they have more than done their part for the LS over the years and are a part of the foundations of the LS (LS been going over 4 years now). Now if due to RL/burnout or w/e they only log on now and then when they have the time, people are happy to see them and chat and let them participate if they want to. We have always had the opinion of RL > game and never penalise someone for RL obligations.

I generally keep an eye on our 'active' member list and see if it is time to recruit or w/e. Active to me is being a regular attender at our scheduled events. Logging on once a week randomly isn't active to me. Atm we have an active list of 40ish+ people with another 20 or so 'inactive' people who log on occassionally to help out etc.

We are still going fairly strong as an LS. We have quiet periods where people need time off or w/e or there is a changeover with people quitting and us getting a few new people but in general we get the job done on what we set out to do.

[-Ant-]

On topic topic, has anyone gone with a high tolerance policy and still functioning at full speed?(i was never one for breaking pearls) i understand there are rules and guidelines that must be followed. i'm just trying to get my head around what to do with old players who have lost interest and are waiting for flails to make their day and all these new gen players who can't cut the mustard when it comes to the endgame dedication we had before the concept of "in before dying game" was even a plausible phrase to associate with FF lol.

Usually high tolerance shells turn social and nazi shells implode when shit happens. i'm just trying to keep us functional without stalls or resorting to low-manning everything.

i am blessed with members who can keep playing like this, but relying on respect and the open arms of friendship/camaraderie of the core group will eventually die when people move on.

The way I always looked at it was that the people that have been in a shell for years have -probably- earned some rights by what they did in their past (I think I have a good idea of the people you're talking about lol) and you can never forget about it. Kaige for instance was a very powerful and hot-headed leader, while I can't say I was always on good terms with him, he certainly enforced a strong motive to do things, or else you get kicked. When he eventually came back from a break or whatever without a sack, he was still looked at as a person you want to respect (well I didn't think so but I guess I can understand why others did)
Can't forget or overlook the past imo

I think the fact remains though (without beating the dead horse) that the game is nowhere near as fun as it used to be, and people WILL get burned out very soon. Everything has to come to an end I suppose?

Quality players these days are hard to find, and I don't think a worthwhile shell is going to come from the ground-up with the new generation of players and be successful (see: tdg). Our time was when you had to kite everything too hard to solo tank, their time has become much easier and things are done differently (for the better, in some cases)

[Tagus]

I think that the most important thing in maintaining strong LS leadership is trying to make the game fun for your members at this point. Both leading and being a part of an endgame LS can be a largely thankless task, and being fucking nice is about the most underrated thing a leader and/or member can do. I'm not saying that if you have a member that isn't worth the trouble that it isn't a good idea to drop the hammer and get them the fuck out... and I understand that any person's tendency to be a dickhead stems from the fact that there are so many shitty players and leaders out there. But if you're nice, friendly, and generally make an effort to not be an asshole, you're going to get farther in every conceivable situation.

[amentis]

I suppose I'll put my two-cents in.

To the person a few pages back (before loldrama), that said in order to avoid burn-out, you have to limit yourself...that doesn't work.

Well, it does work, if you're in an LS of understanding people.

However, Whaleporn and I were not.
Whale, like he said, was the longest standing member in the entire ls. He also was vilified for having interests other than FFXI.
He did his part for the LS, got literally NO GEAR in return, yet was constantly shit-talked because he liked to play some DotA now and again.

Once I started branching out and having a life, the same thing happened to me.
It's funny how when you devote all your free time to the pursuit of getting others gear, they turn on you the second you take a step back for some breathing room.

Another issue that I came across was discipline. This is more for a semi-endgame LS, not the hardcore zomgHNMLS out there.
CTB Was a sky/sea/einehrjar/etc. Relatively busy endgame, but it still had the casual mentality from before it went full endgame.

So, what would happen, is there'd be fuckups. Big ones. Constantly. At first, I'd try simply explaining to people what they did wrong, and ask them not to do it again.
But people would never listen. People would only listen when I yelled and screamed and ranted.
This got us to the point where we were before I quit, which was leaps and bounds ahead of where we were before I became a leader. However, everyone started to hate me.

Being a leader is a lose-lose situation. If you're nice, people will suck at the game. If you're mean, people will resent you.

tl;dr: People are assholes, don't bother leading an LS because human beings are ungrateful, greedy swine who only care about what shinies they get.

[Duber]

tl;dr: People are assholes, don't bother leading an LS because human beings are ungrateful, greedy swine who only care about what shinies they get.

/comfort lol.

This is probably true, however, it only hurts if you care about it. Don't care about greedy and ungrateful people.

Do what you think is right and keep going. At worse, you tried.

[Starr]

I would love for someone like Disy or Stanislav to post in here about how to run a LS and be a leader, as much as I disliked them both they had the ability to get everything they wanted without being questioned and could run a LS forever.