Zanshin proc rate and accuracy bonus

[Shinryuu]

I'm very much looking forward to this result, and I'm already very happy with the SAM main result. Thanks to all of you Deadgye testers.

[Motenten]

Preliminary speculation based on 5k samples.

It looks like the proc rate is going to be 25% for /sam, while the accuracy bonus remains the same +35. The margin of error is still fairly large, but given SE's propensity for round numbers, it's close enough that something very surprising would have to happen to cause the results to be any different. So...

Implications (large tables hidden)

[Note: These calculations assume DA procs before Zanshin. If Zanshin procs first, the final effective hit rate will be a smidge higher, and the value of the accuracy stat will be somewhat lower. I've worked out the test that would be needed to tell the difference, but it would require 100k attacks and take about 72 hours of continuous testing, so it's not a priority for me right now.]

Impact on the marginal value of added accuracy with no DA:

Spoiler: show

Baseline:   75%
            Based only on Acc:                                                      Based on Total hits:
Hit rate    % Total Improvement   % Marginal Improvement    Total Hits w/Zanshin    % Marginal Improvement
75%         0.00%                 0                         854.06                  0
76%         1.33%                 1.33%                     860.98                  0.81%
77%         2.67%                 1.32%                     867.81                  0.79%
78%         4.00%                 1.30%                     874.05                  0.72%
79%         5.33%                 1.28%                     879.78                  0.65%
80%         6.67%                 1.27%                     885.50                  0.65%
81%         8.00%                 1.25%                     891.23                  0.65%
82%         9.33%                 1.23%                     896.95                  0.64%
83%         10.67%                1.22%                     902.68                  0.64%
84%         12.00%                1.20%                     908.40                  0.63%
85%         13.33%                1.19%                     914.13                  0.63%
86%         14.67%                1.18%                     919.85                  0.63%
87%         16.00%                1.16%                     925.58                  0.62%
88%         17.33%                1.15%                     931.30                  0.62%
89%         18.67%                1.14%                     937.03                  0.61%
90%         20.00%                1.12%                     942.75                  0.61%
91%         21.33%                1.11%                     948.48                  0.61%
92%         22.67%                1.10%                     954.20                  0.60%
93%         24.00%                1.09%                     959.93                  0.60%
94%         25.33%                1.08%                     965.65                  0.60%
95%         26.67%                1.06%                     971.38                  0.59%

The value of each point of accuracy as a stat is approximately 55% of what it would be without Zanshin. Note that the total improvement in damage in going from a 75% hit rate to a 95% hit rate when Zanshin is accounted for is 971.38/854.06 = 13.7% rather than the 27% we'd expect from the improvement in accuracy alone.


However DA needs to be accounted for as well.

Impact on the marginal value of added accuracy with 17% DA:

Spoiler: show

Baseline:   75%
            Based only on Acc:
Hit rate    % Total Improvement   % Marginal Improvement  Total Hits w/Zanshin + DA     % Marginal Improvement
75%         0.00%                 0                       963.87                        0
76%         1.33%                 1.33%                   973.01                        0.95%
77%         2.67%                 1.32%                   982.08                        0.93%
78%         4.00%                 1.30%                   990.66                        0.87%
79%         5.33%                 1.28%                   998.81                        0.82%
80%         6.67%                 1.27%                   1006.97                       0.82%
81%         8.00%                 1.25%                   1015.12                       0.81%
82%         9.33%                 1.23%                   1023.27                       0.80%
83%         10.67%                1.22%                   1031.42                       0.80%
84%         12.00%                1.20%                   1039.57                       0.79%
85%         13.33%                1.19%                   1047.72                       0.78%
86%         14.67%                1.18%                   1055.88                       0.78%
87%         16.00%                1.16%                   1064.03                       0.77%
88%         17.33%                1.15%                   1072.18                       0.77%
89%         18.67%                1.14%                   1080.33                       0.76%
90%         20.00%                1.12%                   1088.48                       0.75%
91%         21.33%                1.11%                   1096.63                       0.75%
92%         22.67%                1.10%                   1104.79                       0.74%
93%         24.00%                1.09%                   1112.94                       0.74%
94%         25.33%                1.08%                   1121.09                       0.73%
95%         26.67%                1.06%                   1129.24                       0.73%

The value of each point of accuracy as a stat is approximately 65% of what it would be without Zanshin. Total increase in the number of hits is 17.2% rather than 27%.

Then tables for /sam as a sub:

For war/sam:

Spoiler: show

Baseline:    75%                           Zanshin rate:           25%                                            DA Rate: 17%                             
             Based only on Acc:                                                           Based on Total hits:                                            
Hit rate     % Improvement from Baseline   % Marginal Improvement  Total Hits w/Zanshin   % Marginal Improvement  Total Hits w/Zanshin + DA  % Marginal Improvement
75%          0.00%                         0                       807.81                 0                       925.48                     0
76%          1.33%                         1.33%                   816.10                 1.03%                   935.76                     1.11%
77%          2.67%                         1.32%                   824.34                 1.01%                   946.00                     1.09%
78%          4.00%                         1.30%                   832.25                 0.96%                   955.97                     1.05%
79%          5.33%                         1.28%                   839.88                 0.92%                   965.70                     1.02%
80%          6.67%                         1.27%                   847.50                 0.91%                   975.43                     1.01%
81%          8.00%                         1.25%                   855.13                 0.90%                   985.15                     1.00%
82%          9.33%                         1.23%                   862.75                 0.89%                   994.88                     0.99%
83%          10.67%                        1.22%                   870.38                 0.88%                   1004.61                    0.98%
84%          12.00%                        1.20%                   878.00                 0.88%                   1014.34                    0.97%
85%          13.33%                        1.19%                   885.63                 0.87%                   1024.07                    0.96%
86%          14.67%                        1.18%                   893.25                 0.86%                   1033.80                    0.95%
87%          16.00%                        1.16%                   900.88                 0.85%                   1043.53                    0.94%
88%          17.33%                        1.15%                   908.50                 0.85%                   1053.26                    0.93%
89%          18.67%                        1.14%                   916.13                 0.84%                   1062.98                    0.92%
90%          20.00%                        1.12%                   923.75                 0.83%                   1072.71                    0.92%
91%          21.33%                        1.11%                   931.38                 0.83%                   1082.44                    0.91%
92%          22.67%                        1.10%                   939.00                 0.82%                   1092.17                    0.90%
93%          24.00%                        1.09%                   946.63                 0.81%                   1101.90                    0.89%
94%          25.33%                        1.08%                   954.25                 0.81%                   1111.63                    0.88%
95%          26.67%                        1.06%                   961.88                 0.80%                   1121.36                    0.88%

Going from 75% base accuracy to 95% increases total hits by 21% rather than 27%.


For drg/sam, drk/sam, etc:

Spoiler: show

Baseline:   75%                            Zanshin rate:           25%                                            DA Rate:                   7%
            Based only on Acc:                                                            Based on Total hits:                               
Hit rate    % Improvement from Baseline    % Marginal Improvement  Total Hits w/Zanshin   % Marginal Improvement  Total Hits w/Zanshin + DA  % Marginal Improvement
75%         0.00%                          0                       807.81                 0                       856.27                     0
76%         1.33%                          1.33%                   816.10                 1.03%                   865.37                     1.06%
77%         2.67%                          1.32%                   824.34                 1.01%                   874.43                     1.05%
78%         4.00%                          1.30%                   832.25                 0.96%                   883.19                     1.00%
79%         5.33%                          1.28%                   839.88                 0.92%                   891.68                     0.96%
80%         6.67%                          1.27%                   847.50                 0.91%                   900.18                     0.95%
81%         8.00%                          1.25%                   855.13                 0.90%                   908.67                     0.94%
82%         9.33%                          1.23%                   862.75                 0.89%                   917.16                     0.93%
83%         10.67%                         1.22%                   870.38                 0.88%                   925.65                     0.93%
84%         12.00%                         1.20%                   878.00                 0.88%                   934.14                     0.92%
85%         13.33%                         1.19%                   885.63                 0.87%                   942.63                     0.91%
86%         14.67%                         1.18%                   893.25                 0.86%                   951.12                     0.90%
87%         16.00%                         1.16%                   900.88                 0.85%                   959.61                     0.89%
88%         17.33%                         1.15%                   908.50                 0.85%                   968.11                     0.88%
89%         18.67%                         1.14%                   916.13                 0.84%                   976.60                     0.88%
90%         20.00%                         1.12%                   923.75                 0.83%                   985.09                     0.87%
91%         21.33%                         1.11%                   931.38                 0.83%                   993.58                     0.86%
92%         22.67%                         1.10%                   939.00                 0.82%                   1002.07                    0.85%
93%         24.00%                         1.09%                   946.63                 0.81%                   1010.56                    0.85%
94%         25.33%                         1.08%                   954.25                 0.81%                   1019.05                    0.84%
95%         26.67%                         1.06%                   961.88                 0.80%                   1027.54                    0.83%

Going from 75% base accuracy to 95% increases total hits by 20% rather than 27%.


So basicly all analysis of gear where Zanshin and accuracy is part of the consideration need to have the value of that accuracy scaled down compared to current expectations. For sam main the value of accuracy is about 60%-65% of its face value (the higher end if going /war). For jobs that sub /sam, the improvement is about 75% of its face value.

So, gear comparisons may need to be reevaluated due to this. For example, a war/nin that determines that gear A is marginally better than gear B may find that gear B becomes better than gear A if they are war/sam instead.

[Amok]

I'm not familiar with KParser, but reading about the parse errors does make me wonder if there are any faulty parses of zanshin procs (i.e. miss followed by hit parsed as an additional attack). Even so, they probably wouldn't make much difference due to the 5k+ sample size, so the results are still reliable.

[Deadgye]

I'm not familiar with KParser, but reading about the parse errors does make me wonder if there are any faulty parses of zanshin procs (i.e. miss followed by hit parsed as an additional attack). Even so, they probably wouldn't make much difference due to the 5k+ sample size, so the results are still reliable.

When doing testing for triple attack proc rate I found that the only thing that screwed with multi-attack parsing using KParser was if my delay was too low. (And as a thief, it naturally was.) I can't remember what the threshold was, but as long as you're over it there shouldn't be any problems in parsing. (I hypothesis that the double attack threshold would be lower than the triple attack, seeing as it doesn't last as long.) If your delay is below that threshold then no sample size will get you correct answers. You'll be able to tell easily if you're below or over that threshold so it's normally not a problem though. (Brutal Earring getting 11% proc rate instead of 5% when below the threshold for example.)

[Xanthe]

requires 66 max str for 0 dmg. My elvaan PLD/sam naked has STR80 base... no way i can find gears dropping my str for -14... Sorry Mot

Do you not have any Koenig gear? STR-10 and DEX-10 on every piece. Corsette STR-2, Gluttony Sword STR-1, Darksteel Gorget STR-1, Malflame Ring STR-3, Wood M/F Ledelsens STR-3. Dropping your STR by 14 is easy.

[Masamune]

O yes you right, i have Koenig Head/Legs and Malflame, but thats it ;; Can't use Gluttony since need a DMG1 weapon, and 0 Wood pieces on my server AH since quite some time... maybe with Corsette should be k.
Thank you Xanthe^^

[Foldypaws]

Can someone test this as say, a 60 SAM/something, and say a 75something/SAM20 ?

I'm curious if the bonus is based on SAM level (like Hasso) or simply based on main vs sub (like Meditate).

[Zilong]

Doesn't Zanshin only works with 2 handed weapons?

[Xanthe]

Doesn't Zanshin only works with 2 handed weapons?

Yes, so PLD should test with a Pitchfork (event item) or Signet Staff.

[seiji]

Doesn't Zanshin only works with 2 handed weapons?

Yes, so PLD should test with a Pitchfork (event item) or Signet Staff.

No!

[Xanthe]

No!

Didn't Lyramion test that back when Hachiryu equipment was first introduced and show it didn't work for 1-handed weapons?

[Onorgul]

I don't know about Hachiryu, but I spent several hours down in Kuftal Tunnel a few weeks ago as level 72 Ranger/Samurai meleeing with my Francisca to break some Trial weapons and I can assure you that Zanshin proc'd from my subjob.

[seiji]

oh? I thought i read the opposite (I might be wrong)
maybe hachiryu enhance it but dont give it

[Motenten]

Well, I can certainly verify from the test I'm doing as pld/sam that Zanshin is working while using a dagger.

[Masamune]

Zanshin not proc'ing with 1H weapons isnot specified anywhere huh?! Can you point us where did you see that claim Xanthe ?
EDIT: found someone commented it as false at the end of Discussion page, he got Zanshin'd hits as BLU/sam.

Also, when i went to wiki to check above claim, i read something else that might skew parses :

Zanshin can activate on a 0 damage hit.

Any proof ?

[Onorgul]

If your attack gets Guarded down to 0 (happens frustratingly often if you're 23 or so in Yuhtunga Jungle), Zanshin can proc from it. I see no reason why having fatally low fSTR would be any different.

[Motenten]

I believe it procs only when one of the mob's defense skills causes your swing to do no damage: either evasion (miss), parry, or guard for 0; possibly shield block for 0? don't recall any mobs that use shields other than for decoration.

On the other hand, simply hitting for 0 because of using a d0 weapon does not appear to allow for Zanshin to proc. If it did, I'd be getting crazy numbers of DAs in my testing. As it is, for the data up to when the game shut off today, I have 2778 extra attacks out of 19026 rounds, 2773 of which occured when the first round was a miss. Therefore I had 4 instances (one round was a triple attack) out of the 8142 rounds where I hit for 0 that are marked as getting extra attacks. I'm pretty sure that's parser error, and that simply hitting for 0 due to weapon damage and fStr cannot cause a Zanshin proc.

[Masamune]

I..., and that simply hitting for 0 due to weapon damage and fStr cannot cause a Zanshin proc.

Huh? that's contradictory with all the extra attacks you parsed o.O

That quote is basically saying that with this method, Zanshin can NOT proc, ie you should have parsed 0 extra attacks (barring the parser errors of course). So from where do all those parsed extra attacks come from ?

Please enlighten me, im /confused there.

[Motenten]

All (or nearly all; 2773 out of 2778 ) of the extra attacks proc'd on missed first swings. None (aside from presumed parser error) proc'd on 0 damage hits.

[Masamune]

yu were observing all those zanshin'd hits all that time ? o.O

EDIT: actually, if Zanshin was firing on 0dmg hits, yu would have got lot more extra attacks than misses if im reasoning correctly ? so that means lolwiki needs a correction < <