5 hit SAM build available, but how feasible is it?

[Narse]

I was doing some math today and it looks like there is a pretty reasonable option for a 5 hit SAM build. The sacrifice to hit it seems relatively minor (though food dependent if you want to keep Byakko's Haidate).

With a Hagun, you should need 74 Store TP to hit this build, or with an Amano 81 (while less viable, there are situations where you could easily maintain a 5 hit build on Amano due to being able to keep up the Aftermath effect constantly, gaining the extra 7 Store TP you would need).

The relatively safe bets for large Store TP would be (and this is going to come out more than 74, the goal is to mix and match as necessary depending on what is available to you):

25 from Job Traits
10 from Merits
5 from Rajas Ring
1 from Brutal Earring
7 from Usukane feet
6 from Usukane body (though can be done with Askar body)
4 from Rose Strap
9 from Hachiman Kote +1
2 from White Tathlum
1 from Attila's Earring
1 from Ecphoria Ring
1 from Chivalrous Chain

5 from Enkidu's Subligar/6 from Shinimusha haidate [if you have to start using leg slot for more Store TP it starts to get into the realm of not being viable, in my opinion, especially since you will have to WS in all your Store TP gear (although Enkidu's Subligar would not be TOO bad to WS in if it allowed you to hit this build)]

6 from Carbonara

The best option here would seem to be:

25 from Job Traits
10 from Merits
5 from Rajas Ring
1 from Brutal Earring
7 from Usukane feet
6 from Usukane body
4 from Rose Strap
9 from Hachiman Kote +1
6 from Carbonara

and then depending on what other earring/neck pieces you have available to you, one of the following:

1 from Chivalrous Chain (seems like the worst of the options as it would force you to give up WS gorget)
1 from Attila's Earring (probably the best option if you have Usukane body but do not have Bushinomimi)
1 from Ecphoria Ring
2 from White Tathlum (which would also allow you lose 1 Store TP somewhere else, perhaps from using Askar body over Usukane body if you do not have it available to you)

Overall, this seems like a very viable option in my opinion, at least situationally. Have people just not realized this is available to them? Is it too restrictive for most people to get because of the gear required to obtain this build? Or am I just missing something here?

[Nishida]

Rindomaru w/ STP+15 WS DMG +5%, Usu Body/feet, White Tathlum, Rajas Ring. Would arguably be better since you won't have to sacrifice any haste nor your bushi/brutal/toreador's.

[Narse]

Rindomaru w/ STP+15 WS DMG +5%, Usu Body/feet, White Tathlum, Rajas Ring. Would arguably be better since you won't have to sacrifice any haste nor your bushi/brutal/toreador's.

That is not the point of the discussion, though. The fact is that there is (in my opinion) a viable 5 hit build for SAM that nobody is taking advantage of (at least that I've seen or heard of). Also, I am pretty sure you are wrong anyways. Giving up 3% haste (or even 4%) and a few points of accuracy seems well worth the added damage you'd get from Hagun over Rindomaru. I think it comes down to more of the viability of giving up (whatever food) and using the (potentially more expensive) carbonara in order to hit the build.

[pchan]

Rindomaru & pachipachio are 5 hits build already, hagun is not the best GK. Also

Giving up 3% haste (or even 4%)

your setup is giving up 4% haste on hands, 1% on feet and 2% double attack which is possibly 10-14% damage (With usu body you don't need usu feet for 6 hit)

[ZhiGaruda]

Rindomaru & pachipachio are 5 hits build already, hagun is not the best GK. Also



your setup is giving up 4% haste on hands, 1% on feet and possibly 1% on earring and 2% double attack which is possibly 14% damage (With usu body you don't need usu feet for 6 hit)

"Hagun is not the best GK"

Another epic pchan moment.

[Virg]

Hagun is not the best GK.

Should totally go into my signature.

[Pharaun]

To be fair I'm pretty sure the math showed that a 5 hit Rindo would be better on lolibri (although why you wouldn't be using a polearm setup is beyond me) but it fares worse as the mobs get harder.

As for this build, I think it's a little too gear dependant, and the average Sam isn't going to be able to get everything that is required.

[Shinryuu]

Realistically you're sacrificing 5% haste and 2% DA. You can still /DRG picking Ecphoria, bringing you to:

5% earring, 5% head, 5% pants, 2% feet, 6% belt for 23% haste, or 18% /WAR. When you have hasso, haste samba, marches and haste: In /DRG's case 5hit wins because you're only sacrificing 2% haste, which is 10% damage (6hit to 5hit is roughly a 25% WS frequency increase, which is like 15% total damage for SAM). In /WAR's case 6hit full haste is going to win, 18% to 23% haste is 22% damage then.

Take away even one source of haste (haste samba and hasso are good candidates) and 5hit hagun will beat everything, be it /WAR or /DRG. With so much haste you should be /DRG anyway so that's not an excuse either. The 2% is quite insignificant in all this, the gap is always too high (in either option's favor) for it to compensate anything.

What pchan probably means to say is that 5hit Rindo (barely) beats 6hit Hagun, which is neither here nor there. So yeah Narse, you're right.

[Cream Soda]

1% on feet

Who uses fuma over usu shoes?

[Shinryuu]

By the way, this is all assuming decked haste gear. If you don't have dusk gloves +1 and/or a velocious belt (but do have Narse's bottom 5-hit) the 5-hit wins out even more.

[Shinryuu]

Who uses fuma over usu shoes?

People that are capped on ACC and have Usukane body or are capped even with Askar body.

[Byrthnoth]

** Cleaned up Edition**

Possible combinations for SAM 5-hit with a 450 GKT are:
TP in 74 STP, WS in 74 STP
TP in 75 STP, WS in 71 STP
TP in 76 STP, WS in 67 STP
TP in 77 STP, WS in 64 STP

I imagine the 74STP WS build would be something like:
Hagun/Rose/White Tathlum
MKE Hat/Gorget/Brutal/STR+2 Augmented Atila's
Domaru +1/Alkys/Rajas/Triumph
Smilodon+1/Warwolf/Shura?/Rutters
-61 STP
To make 74 STP you'd need to swap in Hachiman Sune-ate +1 (6STP, -5 Atk), Enkidu's Subligar (5STP, -2 STR), and 2 STP from somewhere <,<; It's nicer to take 75STP to the TP phase.


All told, the perfect Hagun SAM/DRG 5-hit would look like this I think:
TP:
Hagun/Rose/White Tathlum
Turban/Ancient/Brutal/Wyvern
Usu body/Hachiman Kotes +1/Rajas/Toreador's
Back/V-belt/Haidates/Usu feet
Food: Carbonara
STP - 4+2+1+6+9+5+7+25+10+6 = 75 STP
Haste - 5+5+6+5+2 = 23% Haste
DA - 5%

WS:
Hagun/Rose Strap/White Tathlum
MKE hat/Gorget/Brutal/Bushi
Hachiman Domaru +1/Alkys/Rajas/Triumph
Smilodon/Warwolf/Enkidu/Hachiman Sune-ate+1
STP - 4+2+1+7+5+5+6+25+10+6 = 71 STP
STR - White Tathlum (-0-2), Domaru (-1), Enkidu (-2) = -3-5 STR relative to what it could be and depending on Race
DA - 5%

If you used Chiv Chain and Ecphoria Ring during TP, you wouldn't need to find a Domaru +1, but if you were going to TP in those two it'd be better to use Shura +1 legs and an RSE satchet than something over Domaru +1.

I guess the biggest things that make these builds inviable are:
1) Eating Carbonara (not Pizza) is viable at birds and not that great elsewhere for Acc reasons. However, birds are one place I personally wouldn't want to be popping Carbonara.
2) 3 pieces of Hachiman +1 (including Domaru) and two pieces of Usu are required to keep the 5-hit, so good luck with that.


Just get a Corsair!

[mdkuser]

Should totally go into my signature.

you need to keep up to date. I totally laugh looking at those people augmenting their hagun and wasting 3Mils, when a crappy ridomaru with almost no stats beat it.


@OP. if you rely on carbonara for your 5-hit its gonna suck because you sacrifice a potential +40 acc from pizza. So it would be only worth it on stuff you need less than 400 acc to cap on. Ok there is a lot of mobs for which it is sufficient (anything weaker than a merit mob).

Now even in this stituation, compared to a 6-hit hagun, your are easilly sacrificing 5% haste+ 2%DA, Or 4% haste and sword strap, whichever you prefer. Also, eyeballing, 20 attack and 10 str on tp phase. Not to mention that you need to sacrifce a decent amount of STR during weapon skill as well ( eyeballing, 2% DA and 10 STR). So your melee average damage will be down by something like 10%, and your ws average dmg will be down by 10% too. Your total dmg will also be down -10~15% due to 2%DA and 5% haste loss, so in the end I'm guessing you'll have -20% ish total damage. The only thing positive you get is +25% number of weapon skills, so it's not gonna make up for it.

The only good 5-hit weapons are 480 delay polearms and GKs, and the rindomarus with 15+ store TP.

[Shinryuu]

Also, eyeballing, 20 attack and 10 str on tp phase. Not to mention that you need to sacrifce a decendt amount of STR during weapon skill as well ( eyeballing, 2% DA and 15 STR). So your melee average damage will be down by something like 10%, and your ws average dmg will be down by 10% too.

I don't think so Tim

[ringthree]

Realistically you're sacrificing 5% haste and 2% DA. You can still /DRG picking Ecphoria, bringing you to:

5% earring, 5% head, 5% pants, 2% feet, 6% belt for 23% haste, or 18% /WAR. When you have hasso, haste samba, marches and haste: In /DRG's case 5hit wins because you're only sacrificing 2% haste, which is 10% damage (6hit to 5hit is roughly a 25% WS frequency increase, which is like 15% total damage for SAM). In /WAR's case 6hit full haste is going to win, 18% to 23% haste is 22% damage then.

Take away even one source of haste (haste samba and hasso are good candidates) and 5hit hagun will beat everything, be it /WAR or /DRG. With so much haste you should be /DRG anyway so that's not an excuse either. The 2% is quite insignificant in all this, the gap is always too high (in either option's favor) for it to compensate anything.

What pchan probably means to say is that 5hit Rindo (barely) beats 6hit Hagun, which is neither here nor there. So yeah Narse, you're right.

Pchan's reference is to the last time Rindomaru was discussed as potentially better than Hagun. In the end, it was slightly better than Hagun on Greater Colibri but against higher level mobs it would quickly fall behind.

[Kipling]

To be fair I'm pretty sure the math showed that a 5 hit Rindo would be better on lolibri (although why you wouldn't be using a polearm setup is beyond me) but it fares worse as the mobs get harder.

Pchan's reference is to the last time Rindomaru was discussed as potentially better than Hagun. In the end, it was slightly better than Hagun on Greater Colibri but against higher level mobs it would quickly fall behind.

You realize he said this already 7 or so posts up, right?

[Shinryuu]

I know.

Rindo's only advantage is 5-hit. The topic at hand is a possible Hagun 5-hit. Now, which weapon is better, the one with 2 extra DMG or the one with 18% WS damage?

And it doesn't fall behind on higher level mobs per se, that's a logical fallacy of the worst kind. Rindo falls behind the more weaponskills come from Meditation. JoL is one of the higher level mobs in the game, but you're constantly engaged and therefore a Rindo 5hit performs very well there. Colibri, same deal. Flying dagrons? No go.

As for the loss in WS damage: it's roughly 5%.

[mdkuser]

I don't think so Tim

which part? you also need to keep 20,0+ tp from weapon skills, for meditate tics synch. I totally forgot about /drg.

@vegetto, if you are gonna use pole grip, usu body+ dusk feet+1 wins. it's even better than usu feet + sword strap in very high haste situation.


Also yes, 5-hits ( rindomaru or pachipachio or polearm) are all the better ( compared to 6-hit hagun) that your haste or DA are high

[pchan]

What pchan probably means to say is that 5hit Rindo (barely) beats 6hit Hagun, which is neither here nor there. So yeah Narse, you're right.

This is totally ignoring the inability to eat pizza, and therefore giving up 44 accuracy. Now even for low eva stuff, you give up 30 attack or more.

[Axilla]

Should totally go into my signature.

LOL