Global Warmists -- Read ( Climategate )

[Rothbardian]

Man, I think Cadsuane actually believes society is this amalgous form of a being, and not the interactions of sovereign individuals persuing their own self-interests. This we inherently call capitalism and the accumulation of liberty and wealth. A weird thing about this sovereignty and liberty, is that, it generally creates a peaceful "society" because it is in my best interest to provide for my security (peace), wealth (division of labor, free-trade, voluntary transaction, abiding by property rights, etc.), and posterity (to pass on a better future) and that is generally the overriding arch of humanity.

When you start to see "society" as a person, is when you throw out any semblance of morality. There is no such thing as the greater good. There is no such thing as justified aggressive and coercive force to achieve any means, or any ends. It is all immoral. You can keep your social engineering and tinker away somewhere else, and I'll continue to educate people about their inherent rights as humans, and about the only legitimate morality in this existance -- Natural Law.

[BerenTebogo]

It always amuses me that people still honestly think that the majority of people, if left to their own devices in a vacuum without any consequences to themselves, will act in the best interest of society as a whole and not look out for themselves and their families first.

Honestly, do you just pretend 6000+ years of human history never happened? I just...I really don't understand.

Humans are probably the most selfish creatures to ever inhabit the planet. I've never understood the arguments for a total eradication of government or even societal structures. Left to our own devices we'd all kill each other.

It's not even speculation either which is the best part. It's backed up by thousands of years of repeated situations without any real progress. Any argument for a universally altruistic society is nothing more than a drug-induced pipe dream.

Fucking hippies man, fucking hippies.

[Sonomaa]

dont like this planet anyway, I hope it dies.

[Brill Weave]

Fucking hippies man, fucking hippies.

Did you really need four statements before you got your point Sath?

[BerenTebogo]

I suppose not, but you know what this thread needs?

[BerenTebogo]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6...nhippieua6.jpg

[Rothbardian]

It always amuses me that people still honestly think that the majority of people, if left to their own devices in a vacuum without any consequences to themselves, will act in the best interest of society as a whole and not look out for themselves and their families first.

Honestly, do you just pretend 6000+ years of human history never happened? I just...I really don't understand.

Humans are probably the most selfish creatures to ever inhabit the planet. I've never understood the arguments for a total eradication of government or even societal structures. Left to our own devices we'd all kill each other.

It's not even speculation either which is the best part. It's backed up by thousands of years of repeated situations without any real progress. Any argument for a universally altruistic society is nothing more than a drug-induced pipe dream.

Fucking hippies man, fucking hippies.

You have no idea what Anarcho-Capitalism is, do you? You know, the main founding tenant of Natural Law, directly says there there are consequences for actions that violate another persons rights. These we call, fraud, theft, murder, vandalism, etc. You do not need a State, to have a system of justice.

Go watch Hans-Hermann Hoppe's Private Law Society on Youtube and maybe you will understand a little better. Remember, this Democracy so-called (Actually supposed to be a Republic), and it's Government or State, is the reflection of the people however, intervened by coercive and aggressive forces unto which normally would not produce said behavior. In shorter terms -- The State is a reflection of the people and it's increase of abnormal behaviors by reducing the self-interest factors associated with human action. For example, by creating gun laws you are arbitrarily allowing the wolves to prey on the sheep. The sheep being the law-abiding citizens, and the wolves being the criminals. There will always be criminals in any "society", and therefore the best deterrent to such prey is to give the sheep teeth to protect themselves. This is why crime increases as the State increases it's tyranny, beaurocracy, and regulations/restrictions. This is just one small example.

Again, for much of the previous period prior to the American Revolution and even during, it was largely voluntaryist in nature, and people were safer, more self-reliant, more independant and sovereign, and crime was drastically lower than it is now. You could say it had a large contingent of anarcho-capitalist vibes (School of Salamanca which Thomas Jefferson sought in high esteem, a much greater esteem than Adam Smith, who was no Capitalist. Think of Turgot or JS Say). Even Ben Franklin acknowledged that much of the society was all ready 'anarchistic' and could do just as fine or better without them, and he rushed them to action. His own words, you can look it up yourself.

Remember, Anarchy merely means the absence of the State; the State being defined as the monopolization of aggressive and coercive force, law, defense, etc. in a given territory. I'm not a hippy. I'm not a libertine.

Again, when the State was the strongest during much of that 6000 year time, innovation and wealth accumulation was near null. In the first, and really few Republic Rome prior to its despotic emperors (Think when it was free-trade, liberty, rights-oriented, prior to the Collosseum, barbarism, etc.), was the wealthiest, freest, most entreprenuerial Nations to have been in existence. Look what happened. Innovation flourished. Wealth was created. Citizens were largely free. I merely seek to expand on the same principles that allow for such occurences, which is the express right of humanity to be free and to secure liberty.

You also misconstrue selfish with self-interests. Is it not in our highest self-interest to preserve our life, liberty, and property? This is almost universally recognized. Indeed, then, one wonders why suddenly total war and death would break out that tears asunder our most basic human self-interests. Indeed, the greatest experiment in liberty created a flourishing free "society", called America. Secondly, one of the longest lasting "societies" was Celtic Ireland who were largely anarchistic and fought off the British for 200 years while being anarchistic.

[Brill Weave]

Shut the fuck up.

[BerenTebogo]

I am silly enough to believe that a society can exist without groups of individuals who do not fully agree with the fundamentals of the reigning type of government coming together to undermine the mandates and socially accepted norms that they, themselves, do not agree with; thereby disrupting whatever quaint notion of peace and mutual well-being may have been possible.

See, I agree with you there. Glad we can see eye to eye and agree that human nature almost dictates that not every person will be able to function under the same guidelines and this invariably undermines any possible utopian society that you describe, penalties or not.

Once you open the doors to punishment such as imprisonment or even separation from the rest of society you immediately break the single-tier stratification necessary for peaceful and equal co-habitation. Besides, unless you immediately put to death anyone who doesn't follow your statutes you will be creating the very underground society that will be the undoing of the aforementioned utopia, or as you like to say, anarcho-w/e society.

In the end it all ends the same way, sorry friend. Free will is a helluva drug.

[BerenTebogo]

GOD DAMMIT NOW YOU HAVE ME SHITTING UP THE GLOBAL WARMING THREAD.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4h83u74QgC...fffffuuuuu.bmp

[aalryn]

Why is there politics in a thread about science?

It's a simple cut and dry answer. Does the data and evidence show that the earth warming? It does. Does the data and evidence show that man has an effect on this? It does.

The only argument that is really valid at this point is to what effect and if we can or should do anything to change that. Is man's contribution to warming significant enough to make a real difference to what occurs naturally?


There is no politics involved in the science. However, people are political creatures and we all vote. The only really political point is if we can make a difference through laws that will make a large enough effect on what is occurring and if we should spend money to limit our effect; not the fact that it is occurring.

[Rothbardian]

Why is there politics in a thread about science?

It's a simple cut and dry answer. Does the data and evidence show that the earth warming? It does. Does the data and evidence show that man has an effect on this? It does.

The only argument that is really valid at this point is to what effect and if we can or should do anything to change that. Is man's contribution to warming significant enough to make a real difference to what occurs naturally?


There is no politics involved in the science. However, people are political creatures and we all vote. The only really political point is if we can make a difference through laws that will make a large enough effect on what is occurring and if we should spend money to limit our effect; not the fact that it is occurring.

I guess you missed it, but this thread is about the falsification, manipulation, and political corruption between Politicians who fund these Scientists, that push their agenda. This is documented, evidenced, and truth. How do you trust the instruments that record the data when the instruments themselves are many times faulty or in such manipulative areas like being placed next to Air Conditioners, and the direct manipulation of the data by the "objective" scientists....

[Brill Weave]

Ok, I'll play a bit here. So Rothbardian, how exactly would you fix all of these issues you're so kindly bringing to light?

[Bingbong]

Why is there politics in a thread about science?

http://www.morethings.com/fan/south_...-superhero.jpg

[Sirrus_Asura]

Humans are probably the most selfish creatures to ever inhabit the planet.

How does gov. fix this again?

[BerenTebogo]

It doesn't, which is actually my entire point. There exists no system of government or society that will remove the most basic aspects of human nature.

The ideas being spewed forth like post-frat party puke require that there be some magical fairyland ideal that makes people act in a way that in every way defies human nature.

[Sirrus_Asura]

It doesn't, which is actually my entire point. There exists no system of government or society that will remove the most basic aspects of human nature.

The ideas being spewed forth like post-frat party puke require that there be some magical fairyland ideal that makes people act in a way that in every way defies human nature.

You make it sound like ana-capitalists are claiming to rid the world of crime, poverty, violence and bring Billy Mayes back to life. Noone has claimed to bring about a utopia.

[BerenTebogo]

Man, I think Cadsuane actually believes society is this amalgous form of a being, and not the interactions of sovereign individuals persuing their own self-interests. This we inherently call capitalism and the accumulation of liberty and wealth. A weird thing about this sovereignty and liberty, is that, it generally creates a peaceful "society" because it is in my best interest to provide for my security (peace), wealth (division of labor, free-trade, voluntary transaction, abiding by property rights, etc.), and posterity (to pass on a better future) and that is generally the overriding arch of humanity.

When you start to see "society" as a person, is when you throw out any semblance of morality. There is no such thing as the greater good. There is no such thing as justified aggressive and coercive force to achieve any means, or any ends. It is all immoral. You can keep your social engineering and tinker away somewhere else, and I'll continue to educate people about their inherent rights as humans, and about the only legitimate morality in this existance -- Natural Law.

This is as close to saying "I can promise you Utopia" as you can get without saying "I can promise you Utopia"

[Sirrus_Asura]

This is as close to saying "I can promise you Utopia" as you can get without saying "I can promise you Utopia"

Only if you equate "Things will be generally better off" to "You'll wanna live forever cause shits gonna be so tight".

[BerenTebogo]

Or if you aren't retarded and realize he's preaching universal positives that are in direct contradiction to human nature aka fantasy aka utopia.

It's not even close to "things will be better off"

Fucking hippies man, I swear.