Life on Mars?

[Kaylia]

I know what pauli principle is, and I understand matter degeneration. It's the step after that make no sense.

1. Pauli principle
2. Degenerate matter
3. ????
4. Super sword


Not only are you stacking "if" (theory of a theory of a theory, and I don't see any mathematics anywhere for the last one), it's doubtful you would be able to create a different matter when you cool it off, or we would observe some leftover from the bigbang. Unless the result of this super heating + cooling is something that already exist in the universe (ie: something like dark matter maybe?), the idea it would create something completely different and more stable than traditional matter is borderline ridiculous

[Max™]

No, it is known that if you violated pauli exclusion, normal matter would take up far less space. It is not known HOW to do that in general.

A quagma state is one in which fermionic rules are not the main operator on the material, cooling from a quagma state is when the baryons begin to behave "normally" as we know them.

This effect generally happens in a broadly random manner, so the odds of any bits of cold degenerate matter would be very low. It would have to be shaped specifically to produce this effect in any significant way.

It is similar to veins of water getting frozen into a block of ice that cooled rapidly. If quagma and not QGP states predominate those energy levels, manipulation of the material could induce it to cool in a specifically designed manner, where the fronts of hadronic condensation collide at a sheet. Any quagma material trapped as the freezing finished would not be able to shed energy normally by freezing into baryonic structures as usual.

The quarks and electrons left over after the rest of the material freezes would not be able to form complete baryons rapidly enough to cool normally, and you should get a secondary release of energy as it all falls into a ground energy state, much like a BEC, or a laser.

It isn't a question of if pauli violated matter would have those properties, it's obvious it would, Dyson showed this is a pretty simple conclusion. The question is could you find any way to violate the exclusion principle, and I have to say no... unless GUT models with quagma condensation are correct. Then it should be possible.

[Woozie]

The problem with GUTs right now is that we can make them say whatever we want. It used be that we'd make GUTs specifically to explain evidence and we'd base it off of existing (proven) theories). Nowadays, GUTs are more of an exercise in mathematics than an an exercise in science. If a person comes up with a set of mathematics that happen to work (to some extent, but even then the math often has a lot of handwaving or conveniently ignoring facts) they publish the theory as a GUT without caring if the physical implications of the theory makes any sense or not. Hence we have 10,000 GUTs today (even though it's only possible for, at most, one of them to be correct).

I'm not saying every GUT is bad. We need people coming up with GUTs if we ever expect to find one. This is how science works. We come up with theories to explain something, then experiments rule out all of the theories except one. But some of these GUTs are going well beyond science.

I'm know that you already know this, Max and Kaylia, I'm just saying this so that the people here who aren't familiar with theoretical physics will know to take all that is being said with a grain of salt.

[Max™]

Well, that is why I specify the quagma bit over the GUT bit, generic GUT theory + specific quark gluon magma state = cold degenerate matter possibilities.

If the high energy realm is a QGP fully, then I'm a bit baffled, but that definitely wouldn't work.

If you could get a condensate to thaw in a particular manner though, it's a similar concept to forging metal more or less.

[Takedown3]

still don't see how anything in this thread is possible today, tommorow or even next year(decade) with all your mathing and sciencing

need to see some physical evidence of these "theories" of yours actually panning out

even if the science checks out building these contraptions would take decades with all of the bureaucratic nonsense that we would have to go thru make progress.

none of what your propose is possible in a world wrought with war and greed. mars is easy in comparison because we aren't talking about complete global cooperation for massive structures being built across the oceans or wherever you would create your mag lev thingy even if it was created within the USA you would still need global cooperation to some extent.

i think before anything you propose can be done in space we need a much more unified world, and that's not going to happen until we either evolve into a superior race which would take millions of years or we discover some new form of energy that is free and easy to produce, not to mention able to use to create food to feed our growing and hungry population. there are stats out there that state 1 billion people in the world are going hungry or starving. thats a pretty huge chunk of people that could contribute to the perfect world that is required for your space exploits to even be considered let alone actually created

use that big brain of yours to solve real life problems not theoretical ones involving rushing to colonize space.

[Kuya]

It has always annoyed me how some people talk about how we first need to "evolve" in order for "us" (who that be!?) to stop engaging in wars with eachother. Is the word even being used in its proper context of the theory of evolution? Or is it just an interchangeable word used along with progress and advancement, and other similarly value charged words?

Is it just simpler to attribute socio-historically contigent events to some all encompasing and undefined "human nature"?

[Valkrish]

tl;dr David Bowie mentioned there was life on mars at one point.

[Kryssan]

I'm sorry, Takedown, but it will not be a lack of war that takes us to space. It will be because of war that we find space. Competition and greed is what drives us to new heights, not peace and love. The idea and conception of a coexisting human race is boring at best, tragic at worst.

…Yes, the desire to protect something.. …is, at the same time, none other than the wish for something to violate it.

Humans tend to be a very pragmatic race. Happy-handholding-peace-loving is not how we get things done. Almost all of our technological and scientific advances are born from the necessity of staying alive or by satiating our own curiosity and desires, which typically involves leaving another person (group of people) berefit.


Save your utopian concepts for the afterlife, you shan't find it here with your racial compatriots.






On topic, as much as I hate to say it, the only way for us to really get into space is to get it commercialized and privatized. The government will only follow us there, they won't be leading us. Power hungry corporations and persons with the desire to claim exotic materials and create extravagant 'paradises' offworld is probably the only way for us to get there. It's pretty much the sled dog race concept. Someone needs to break the snow first. After the first the real rush begins. I believe someone already alluded to it being like a gold rush again. We just need one person/group to go there and find something that has extreme monetary/political value and bring it back. Others will follow after that, like locusts to the flame. If you want proof of this, all you need to do is take a few pages from history's book and skim over them.

[Takedown3]

im not talking about peace and love im talking about the next evolutionary step that would hopefully remove greed and hate and all the other nasty bad things out of the human equation

ya sure war drove us to space, and is most likely the reason we are in space now (albeit is underlying) but for "us" (humans as a species not just USA) to make it into space for science and exploration we need to be more committed to having a planet that is united.

Sure we can rush out there now and claim it for the good ol US of A and bring apple pie and vanilla ice cream and call it civilized but unless we unite everyone around us and rally behind it, it just won't happen on the scale that max is trying to get at

dont get me wrong, i want to be out there, i want everything that max is going on about but i just dont think we can do it at the current state of civilization that we have, to many things are holding us back.

[Takedown3]

On topic, as much as I hate to say it, the only way for us to really get into space is to get it commercialized and privatized. The government will only follow us there, they won't be leading us. Power hungry corporations and persons with the desire to claim exotic materials and create extravagant 'paradises' offworld is probably the only way for us to get there. It's pretty much the sled dog race concept. Someone needs to break the snow first. After the first the real rush begins. I believe someone already alluded to it being like a gold rush again. We just need one person/group to go there and find something that has extreme monetary/political value and bring it back. Others will follow after that, like locusts to the flame. If you want proof of this, all you need to do is take a few pages from history's book and skim over them.

richard branson(sp)?

i dont know i'm kind of stuck in between my belief that one day we wont need to have wars or have any famine, disease, hatred. if what we have now is the peak of our human culture then what is the point of going to space? sure i'm thinking star trek mythos here, no money, just do things to benefit others as well as ourselves.

if the tip of our mighty human race is capitalism please kill me now so you guys can get on with killing yourselves slowly with poisons and bombs.

how can anyone not think that we will get past this current phase of our growth/development? this is certainly not the end all be all of what we are to become, sure maybe for the next several hundred years and who knows mebbe even thousands of years. you have to remember that with science and math discovery and idea comes social discovery and idea. we just haven't figured it all out yet.

and we will. just not in our lifetime.

[Demosthenes11]

china will own space for the next 100 years

heard it here first folks

[Takedown3]

probably

[Takedown3]

http://www.vintagestarwarscollectabl..._Wars_Logo.png

let's go to space for this! totally a great idea to bring our current ideals there with us

[Kuya]

the next evolutionary step that would hopefully remove greed and hate and all the other nasty bad things out of the human equation

[Demosthenes11]

I loved the US' reaction when China shot down one of their satellites a while back
"...that technology exists?"

Considering China is set to go to the moon in 2013, has specifically said they want to control space, and actually has money compared to the US, I'd say there will be a chinese death star in the next 20 years (not kidding)

[Kaylia]

No, it is known that if you violated pauli exclusion, normal matter would take up far less space. It is not known HOW to do that in general.

A quagma state is one in which fermionic rules are not the main operator on the material, cooling from a quagma state is when the baryons begin to behave "normally" as we know them.

This effect generally happens in a broadly random manner, so the odds of any bits of cold degenerate matter would be very low. It would have to be shaped specifically to produce this effect in any significant way.

It is similar to veins of water getting frozen into a block of ice that cooled rapidly. If quagma and not QGP states predominate those energy levels, manipulation of the material could induce it to cool in a specifically designed manner, where the fronts of hadronic condensation collide at a sheet. Any quagma material trapped as the freezing finished would not be able to shed energy normally by freezing into baryonic structures as usual.

The quarks and electrons left over after the rest of the material freezes would not be able to form complete baryons rapidly enough to cool normally, and you should get a secondary release of energy as it all falls into a ground energy state, much like a BEC, or a laser.

It isn't a question of if pauli violated matter would have those properties, it's obvious it would, Dyson showed this is a pretty simple conclusion. The question is could you find any way to violate the exclusion principle, and I have to say no... unless GUT models with quagma condensation are correct. Then it should be possible.

Show me the maths instead, show me that someone did the maths and managed to come up with this conclusion.

Also, try freezing your water in a 2000 degree environment , it won't works. You need additional condition for it. Whatever you described is unlikely to be stable in our universe, in the event every hypothesis you made are remotely close to the truth.

I'm know that you already know this, Max and Kaylia, I'm just saying this so that the people here who aren't familiar with theoretical physics will know to take all that is being said with a grain of salt.

This is pretty much what I told max in the first post of this chain.

I hate GUT, and I hate theories based on GUT theories even more. You can postulate any behaviors on these particles, and end up with almost anything.

[Takedown3]

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...aDEATHSTAR.jpg

[Kryssan]

im not talking about peace and love im talking about the next evolutionary step that would hopefully remove greed and hate and all the other nasty bad things out of the human equation

i dont know i'm kind of stuck in between my belief that one day we wont need to have wars or have any famine, disease, hatred. if what we have now is the peak of our human culture then what is the point of going to space? sure i'm thinking star trek mythos here, no money, just do things to benefit others as well as ourselves.

if the tip of our mighty human race is capitalism please kill me now so you guys can get on with killing yourselves slowly with poisons and bombs.

how can anyone not think that we will get past this current phase of our growth/development? this is certainly not the end all be all of what we are to become, sure maybe for the next several hundred years and who knows mebbe even thousands of years. you have to remember that with science and math discovery and idea comes social discovery and idea. we just haven't figured it all out yet.

and we will. just not in our lifetime.

The problem with your ideology is described in much greater detail in a plethora of books, the one coming immediately to mind is Armstrong's The Hidden War. Ok, lets assume you do manage to alleviate all the 'evils' of mankind. What exactly does that leave? If you take away the reason that people strive to live, do you really think the methodology they're going to turn to is unite together, hold hands, live happily ever after, march off into the sunset forever advancing our race acting only for the good of mankind?


I think not.


You have far too great a hope in human society. The more probable outcome of such an advancement is that people turn inwards, not outwards. Remove the needs from people that are generated by this 'cruel' world and you'll get a society that lives to please itself in utter complacency. You might call that a utopia. Certainly there would be no need for war, there would be no strife, class struggle, or life complications... just do what you want the way you want to. Oh wait you can't do that because inevitably you will do something that someone else will not like. Unless everyone likes the same things/shares a collective mindset and foregos individualistic thought, which leads back to what I discussed earlier.


I'd call this a mindless wasteland.


Human beings define themselves by pain and by competition. The desire to be the best and the first at everything we do. This of course means that someone else must be last, that others are going to fail, and that life is generally going to suck hardcore at various points. If you remove the need for this to occur, you will not yield the product you're intending. We are human because of the good and the bad, and we will need both in order to get to the stars and farther still. The oldest and easiest example of this sentiment is the understanding of what light and dark are; in order to understand one you must have the counterpart. Its fine to have a collective ideal, but to have an assimilated mindset where everyone shares the same idea is a horrid setup. Remember class; people are laughing at you, not with you. As long as you're capable of laughing at yourself, this is fine. Its the 'special' ones that desire to laugh at others and can't laugh at themselves that throw the entire system into disarray.


Now, I happen to like the idea of extending the human lifespan out much farther, since in doing so it gives me more time to achieve my goals. However, I do not agree with the idea of removing strife and hate and competition simply because you're going to hurt someone's feelings, which is what it really boils down to. My opinions of the 'every child is special' and 'everyone is a winner' routines society seems to favor currently and what I'm garnishing from the gist of your posts is summed up most eloquently by George Carlin. To hell with that trash. Our advancement comes from the desire to be better which is produced from the byproduct of the shit we take from life whilst living.

[Rothbardian]

http://addins.wgem.com/blogs/sports/...alrecall09.jpg

"Hey, you, there is life on mars, nyahhh!"

[Zalius]

SPACE COMMUNISTS