FFXIV's Survivability

[Kaslo]

Low drop rates keep you playing. If a mob was 100-50% drop people would get item quick and then complain about having nothing to do.

[Tagus]

Quoted from the Daedalus Project:


"There are a variety of mechanisms in MMORPGs that may encourage obsessive usage. MMORPGs employ well-known behavioral conditioning principles from psychology that reinforce repetitive actions through an elaborate system of scheduled rewards. In effect, the game rewards players to perform increasingly tedious tasks and seduces the player to “play” industriously. These environments also encourage making friends or joining guilds that then become sources of social obligations."

If SE can design FFXIV in a way that the above statement is not true (as it is in FFXI) and still make it a good game that has a loyal following after two years, I'll tip my hat to them. I'll probably have to take your guy's word for it though, because FFXIV looks like it's going to be another SE time sink.... and frankly? Fuck that.

[Eaglestrike]

Low drop rates keep you playing. If a mob was 100-50% drop people would get item quick and then complain about having nothing to do.

Or you could have a WoW-system where the only people that generally get bored are the hardcore people that play 4-6 nights times a week on end-game only.

[Hyan]

Or you could have a WoW-system where the only people that generally get bored are the hardcore people that play 4-6 nights times a week on end-game only.

Or you could have FFXI system where the only people that generally get bored are the ones that have already accomplished most of things in the game, or have played for 5+ years already.

[Corrderio]

you put ozzy in the same sentence as the word shitty. you have no opinion.

Ozzy seems to have fallen on hard times to me if he needs to do staged reality shows.

[xopher]

Oh look, this thread too has turned into FFXI vs WoW.

[NynJa]

Low drop rates keep you playing. If a mob was 100-50% drop people would get item quick and then complain about having nothing to do.

Low drop rates on rare prized items (abju, dring, rid, etc) is one thing. OKote shouldnt be 10%, nor should the drop rate on ALL the new nms.

[Eaglestrike]

Or you could have FFXI system where the only people that generally get bored are the ones that have already accomplished most of things in the game, or have played for 5+ years already.

Really? People aren't bored of Fafnir camping until they've been there for 5 years? What the fuck are you talking about? A fight that doesn't change that you do daily for 5 years is boring as all hell.

Dynamis was boring by the time I started stage 4, I just barely kept to things long enough to pay back my debt and then couldn't even force myself to go in again.

I'm not sure what world you're living in, but all of FFXI's fights not being boring at this point is laughable. People still play because of WHO they're doing the fights with, not because the fights themselves are still interesting.

[Dakana]

Oh look, this thread too has turned into FFXI vs WoW.

And btw FFXI is dying becasue there are no new avatars.

[ringthree]

I think the main top MMOS will be

Aion
FFXIV
Knights of the Old Repbulic

I don't think Diablo 3 will scale really to comparison I personally think that type of game is past its time if they are going to do it like diablo 2 and just improve graphics

Aion is WoW with better graphics and worse gameplay, it will go the way of Warhammer, Conan and every other promised WoW-killer.

Knights of the Old Republic may pull players but I don't think there will as much of an overlap with other "traditional" MMO's.

FFXIV will probably have it's hardcore followers and not challenge WoW either. Luckily, I don't get the impression that SE is trying to challenge WoW like every other freaking MMO developer. Which means we will probably get something that is at least not another WoW clone.

I can't wait to play FFXIV, but I am under no illusions as to how the MMO market currently operates.

[ringthree]

Or you could have a WoW-system where the only people that generally get bored are the hardcore people that play 4-6 nights times a week on end-game only.

You mean almost the entirety of the FFXI population?

[Hyan]

Really? People aren't bored of Fafnir camping until they've been there for 5 years? What the fuck are you talking about? A fight that doesn't change that you do daily for 5 years is boring as all hell.

Dynamis was boring by the time I started stage 4, I just barely kept to things long enough to pay back my debt and then couldn't even force myself to go in again.

I'm not sure what world you're living in, but all of FFXI's fights not being boring at this point is laughable. People still play because of WHO they're doing the fights with, not because the fights themselves are still interesting.

Of course every event will become boring after some time. After killing Fafnir for few years, you get bored... of fafnir. After few years of dynamis, you get bored... of dynamis. But by then new events have been developed and will keep you interested.

The problem comes from the fact that after some time, players catch up with the events. When there are no new events to do and all the stuff before has been cleared, is when people get bored and leave. But if new events get released before you're bored of the old one, there's no issue there.

And I said that the people who get bored of the game are the ones who have played it for 5+ years already. You're repeating what I said. All of FFXI's fights are boring at this point, if you've played for so long already. But you can't say that for someone who's just been introduced to endgame. To him, it's all new and shiny still. It'll take long time from him to get bored like you (well, of course there won't be many new players joining the game, but it's only an example). When you have so many events to do at once he might even be overwhelmed.

Random rambling.. but I'll add it anyway: This is also why I think it's retarded to powerlevel to level cap at the start of the game's release. You'll be the first to hit endgame, and guess what that means? You'll get bored of it sooner too. And the situation will be similar to the one we all may have in XI right now. The fact is, the more events SE adds before you hit the magic level cap, the longer you'll enjoy the game as a whole.

[Rulke]

I feel like I am missing out on posting in this thread. But after 4 pages I couldn't resist any longer.

[Eaglestrike]

Of course every event will become boring after some time. After killing Fafnir for few years, you get bored... of fafnir. After few years of dynamis, you get bored... of dynamis. But by then new events have been developed and will keep you interested.

The problem comes from the fact that after some time, players catch up with the events. When there are no new events to do and all the stuff before has been cleared, is when people get bored and leave. But if new events get released before you're bored of the old one, there's no issue there.

And I said that the people who get bored of the game are the ones who have played it for 5+ years already. You're repeating what I said. All of FFXI's fights are boring at this point, if you've played for so long already. But you can't say that for someone who's just been introduced to endgame. To him, it's all new and shiny still. It'll take long time from him to get bored like you (well, of course there won't be many new players joining the game, but it's only an example). When you have so many events to do at once he might even be overwhelmed.

Random rambling.. but I'll add it anyway: This is also why I think it's retarded to powerlevel to level cap at the start of the game's release. You'll be the first to hit endgame, and guess what that means? You'll get bored of it sooner too. And the situation will be similar to the one we all may have in XI right now. The fact is, the more events SE adds before you hit the magic level cap, the longer you'll enjoy the game as a whole.

I was bored of sky before I got all my gear from sky. I went to sky because I still needed gear there. And it wasn't haidate either, I played a single job. I was bored of sky before sea came out. I will admit to not really getting bored of sea, but no one really wanted to run sea so I didn't run it like sky. I enjoyed Salvage, but got bored of assaults.

In the FFXI system, you have 11ish bosses in sky, maybe 13ish in sea? Not sure how many to count for Salvage since a one-move difference separates a lot of the big bosses. But lets just say there are about 50 different FFXI bosses (that you need alliances for).

WoW system: Naxx 16 bosses, OS 1 boss, EoE 1 boss, VoA 4 bosses, Ulduar 13 bosses, ToC 5 bosses, ICC 11? bosses. That's 50 bosses in one expansion.

50 fights over 7 years or 50 fights every 2 years, which do you think is more interesting?

And the loot system. In FFXI it gives you terrible drop rates to consume your time. In WoW they throw gear at you so that there's always something you gain for your time. They have a variety of loot, FFXI does have this, but there can be 12 items from a boss, 2 always drop, there's still RNG to cockblock you needing the boss for a while, however people are still getting loot, so it feels beneficial to have killed the guy. And then you get emblems which work like an ancient beastcoin currency, so you still get SOMETHING for putting your time into it.

Now, I'm not saying SE should do this exact thing with FFXIV. I do believe SE to be intelligent and innovative, they can think up things I cannot. My wish though is that they understand how well the WoW system works and make something with the same concept. I don't want to be cockblocked on a single boss getting a fire crystal for 2 years. When a boss loses its novelty I only want to revisit it for nostalgia or helping an ungeared friend.

And finally, the argument "The game is still fun for new people!" is a fucking retarded argument. That can be made about just about anything. Super Mario Bros. is fun for new players! Dragon Age: Origins is fun for new players! Well no shit, games get old after a while and MMO's are expected to come up with new content to keep the game fresh.

[D44kpunk]

dead game

[Meko]

Has the internet completely broken everything? There is an active discussion of if a game will survive that hasn't even been released? Is this serious?

[Hyan]

I was bored of sky before I got all my gear from sky. I went to sky because I still needed gear there. And it wasn't haidate either, I played a single job. I was bored of sky before sea came out. I will admit to not really getting bored of sea, but no one really wanted to run sea so I didn't run it like sky. I enjoyed Salvage, but got bored of assaults.

In the FFXI system, you have 11ish bosses in sky, maybe 13ish in sea? Not sure how many to count for Salvage since a one-move difference separates a lot of the big bosses. But lets just say there are about 50 different FFXI bosses (that you need alliances for).

WoW system: Naxx 16 bosses, OS 1 boss, EoE 1 boss, VoA 4 bosses, Ulduar 13 bosses, ToC 5 bosses, ICC 11? bosses. That's 50 bosses in one expansion.

50 fights over 7 years or 50 fights every 2 years, which do you think is more interesting?

And the loot system. In FFXI it gives you terrible drop rates to consume your time. In WoW they throw gear at you so that there's always something you gain for your time. They have a variety of loot, FFXI does have this, but there can be 12 items from a boss, 2 always drop, there's still RNG to cockblock you needing the boss for a while, however people are still getting loot, so it feels beneficial to have killed the guy. And then you get emblems which work like an ancient beastcoin currency, so you still get SOMETHING for putting your time into it.

Now, I'm not saying SE should do this exact thing with FFXIV. I do believe SE to be intelligent and innovative, they can think up things I cannot. My wish though is that they understand how well the WoW system works and make something with the same concept. I don't want to be cockblocked on a single boss getting a fire crystal for 2 years. When a boss loses its novelty I only want to revisit it for nostalgia or helping an ungeared friend.

And finally, the argument "The game is still fun for new people!" is a fucking retarded argument. That can be made about just about anything. Super Mario Bros. is fun for new players! Dragon Age: Origins is fun for new players! Well no shit, games get old after a while and MMO's are expected to come up with new content to keep the game fresh.

Your view of endgame is too black and white. FFXI's endgame's advantage comes from it's variety, not the number of bosses.

Sky, Salvage, Einherjar, Assaults, HNM's, ENM's and Nyzul Isle are nothing alike each other. Can you say the same about "raids" aside from the fact that the boss and environments change? It's the same thing with different bosses. In FFXI the events themselves matter, too. Not just the bosses. Even though Nyzul has no "bosses" in the traditional sense, it's still more fun than Sky (imo). Assaults on the other hand often have no bosses, but they're still more enjoyable than some boss fights. Amazing, isn't it?

And the loot system. In FFXI SE gives you tons of events to do at the same time, all but few with low drop rates, resulting in acceptable progression as long as you don't run out of events to do.

WoW system is no better than the one in XI, it's just created better from the getgo. SE got the idea after few years, which was too late; for the system to work, it should have been done 'right' from the beginning of RoTZ. More random events like Nyzul, less 3½h of boredom like Dynamis and low drop rates would be no issue.

I also wasn't making a "game is fun for new people" argument you idiot. I was explaining to you that yes, while all of XI's fights are boring to you after playing for 5 years doesn't mean that they're boring for the new guy- which proves the point I was trying to make: only those who have accomplished almost everything in the game or have played for more than 5 years generally get bored of the game.

[Meko]

Your view of endgame is too black and white. FFXI's endgame's advantage comes from it's variety, not the number of bosses.

Sky, Salvage, Einherjar, Assaults, HNM's, ENM's and Nyzul Isle are nothing alike each other. Can you say the same about "raids" aside from the fact that the boss and environments change? It's the same thing with different bosses. In FFXI the events themselves matter, too. Not just the bosses. Even though Nyzul has no "bosses" in the traditional sense, it's still more fun than Sky (imo). Assaults on the other hand often have no bosses, but they're still more enjoyable than some boss fights. Amazing, isn't it?

And the loot system. In FFXI SE gives you tons of events to do at the same time, all but few with low drop rates, resulting in acceptable progression as long as you don't run out of events to do.

WoW system is no better than the one in XI, it's just created better from the getgo. SE got the idea after few years, which was too late; for the system to work, it should have been done 'right' from the beginning of RoTZ. More random events like Nyzul, less 3½h of boredom like Dynamis and low drop rates would be no issue.

I also wasn't making a "game is fun for new people" argument you idiot. I was explaining to you that yes, while all of XI's fights are boring to you after playing for 5 years doesn't mean that they're boring for the new guy- which proves the point I was trying to make: only those who have accomplished almost everything in the game or have played for more than 5 years generally get bored of the game.

I agree. I hope that FF14 will result in this idea and move forward with the Nyzul type events. I played from Oct. 2004 until September of this year roughly and while I had well over 200 days of gameplay, I didn't find many, if any of the fights boring. I've played WoW seriously for about a year or so and every fight is boring after the first time. I think the reason though is that WoW has a ton of add-ons and each fight is the same every time. Boss X will do ability X at 2 minute intervals every time and while he does that, you have to rotate around the room on a chess board while jumping and using the emote /clap. WoW uses gimmicks for fights and XI rolls with the traditional tank and spank. With that being said, I prefer the system that XI uses for combat.

However, with all of that being said, I think that a "New" player would have a lot more fun in WoW because of the ease of progression (assuming a NEW player isn't somebody that has a friend that will PL them or supply them with gil).

[willriker]

Someone mentioned jumping. can we jump in ffxiv? i would love to jump all over the place. I would like to jump like tigger. would pick a cat girl so that i could do this. jumping has many uses. you can jump over tables. you can jump over logs. it you could jump in ffxiv it would be good. you can jump over that gate in the hall o gods. so do not need to do story. can save much time. i hope can jump in new game. if can fly in ffxiv it would be much gooder. i can fly and get alot of gil by wowing people with acrobatic while flying. we all know tarutaru make a lot of money dancing. i will do this by flying and jumping. everywhere i will go. i can jump and then fly. i can jump and fly up on jueno building then wave to friend on street they will say how did you get up there. i will say i do not know. and laugh. then i will squish his head with my thumb and finger. and laugh more. it would be good to jump and fly. dont you guys see this? i really hope they make jump and fly in ffxiv. they have jumping in every other game why not ffxiv. jumping verimportant to me. if no jumping no flying i no play ffxiv. jumping and flying is very important if miss airship no problem. mabey make new thing like float for ffxiv to. this can be cool. i can float ontop of AV. he cannot hurt me. i squish his head with me finger and thumb. and laugh. oh oh oh i can drop pebbels on players too. this will be very good idea. join me, i will make this happen. we will all laugh!

[Hyan]

However, with all of that being said, I think that a "New" player would have a lot more fun in WoW because of the ease of progression (assuming a NEW player isn't somebody that has a friend that will PL them or supply them with gil).

Explain please. In endgame right?

Obviously WoW is more new player friendly, so it'd be a clear winner in that aspect. I'm talking about a "new" player in endgame, mainly. I don't think there's much difference there when it comes to having fun; new player can start off with assaults, nyzul, MMM, missions and other lighthearted content and move on from those.