Guild Wars 2: Pre-Release Discussion

[Corrderio]

Coordination is the key. My roommate and I were easily able to keep combos flowing because we had communication. Once people start using pre-mades for everything they do, it'll be less of an issue.

Stupid question, but what do you mean about pre mades?

And another one that's probably dumb, but what do "bolts" mean as a combo?

[Rhyis.]

Just a term used to describe groups using coordinated tactics in vent for RvR (WvWvW), etc. DAoC/WAR terminology.

I'm not really sure what bolt is referring to but the combo is set up by using these skills: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirl_Finisher. Probably shoots out elements out of you or something.

[Corrderio]

Okay thanks. Thought maybe it meant some kind of macro/keybind.

That bolt thing would make some sense. I never got to play any classes other than Guardian so all I could really test was Cleansing Bolts, which wouldn't really be noticeable solo.

[Takiwaki]

nice vid, but I think they missed the point somewhat.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/breaking-the-trinity/

[Rhyis.]

I think a better way to describe no more holy trinity is that everybody in the group is the tank/healer, instead of nobody is the tank/healer.

[Takiwaki]

I think a better way to describe no more holy trinity is that everybody in the group is the tank/healer, instead of nobody is the tank/healer.

The thing is about that is Tank and Healer is part of the trinity, you cant really use those terms when they do not really exist. I mean there is no healer, you cannot target other friendly players, nor there is enough healing and support to keep someone alive that way. You cannot be a healer. There is no tank you cannot stand toe to toe with any mob that's worthwhile for any significant amount of time either. I think nobody is a tank/healer is much better no? I know its kinda hard to explain, its more like a co-dependency from everyone pitching in using the tools given, to support damage and control.

The more up in your face professions tend to play more like: use skills to buff/negate dmg, stay in dish out dmg then move out when skills on cooldown, avoid/kite or stay in dodge/control until skills ready that will allow you to stay in to crack heads again, having more than one person that can do this plus weapon swapping can create an amazing synergy of skills, sharing buffs controlling and combos. There is no standing still.

I have a hard time using the terms tank and healer because you really cannot do those things, especially when viewed in the traditional sense. I know everyone's view on what a tank is or healer is might vary too. If Everyone shared hate, then is there really the need for the term tank?

[Rhyis.]

From the limited experience I gathered playing, mobs that don't get insta-gibbed get bounced around like nobodies business. If it's on you, you tank it with whatever abilities you have available at the time until it jumps on your partner and he does the same. And this process keeps on repeating. Hence in my view, everybody is the tank because everybody is sharing that responsibility.

Healing is similar. I was playing ranger and my roommate was guardian. If healing needed to be done, he'd slap down that healing circle thing he had and I'd pop out my pets regen alongside my healing spring. Both of us were sharing the healing, making both of us healers.

It's just easier to explain it by saying everybody shares all three roles of tanking/healing/dpsing than saying nobody tanks or heals, because that simply isn't true. You will be healing your teammates and you will have mobs focus on you.

[Takiwaki]

From the limited experience I gathered playing, mobs that don't get insta-gibbed get bounced around like nobodies business. If it's on you, you tank it with whatever abilities you have available at the time until it jumps on your partner and he does the same. And this process keeps on repeating. Hence in my view, everybody is the tank because everybody is sharing that responsibility.

Healing is similar. I was playing ranger and my roommate was guardian. If healing needed to be done, he'd slap down that healing circle thing he had and I'd pop out my pets regen alongside my healing spring. Both of us were sharing the healing, making both of us healers.

It's just easier to explain it by saying everybody shares all three roles of tanking/healing/dpsing than saying nobody tanks or heals, because that simply isn't true. You will be healing your teammates and you will have mobs focus on you.

If everyone is tanking and everyone is healing, then doesn't that kinda defeat the entire purpose of the term Tank and healer? I mean in reality then there is no tank or healer. Sharing hate means that there really is no tank, don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from also. I just would not call it tanking at all. The entire idea of a Tank is someone to hold hate and have the mob focus its damage on that person, so others can dmg and support, when everyone is sharing that hate whats the use of even using the term tank? Those roles do not really exist in the way they are meant to be used. Healing your teammates through self aoe heals really is not the same as being a healer, a healers sole purpose in the Trinity is to heal.

I agree its a simple way to make people understand but its kinda misleading.

[arus2001]

I just find myself cautious of the inherent advantages ranged classes would have over melee. Being in range will naturally put you at more risk for taking damage, while also giving less time to respond to a mob's attention shift. I'm also cautious about latency, since there were some times in BWE3 where I felt like I should've dodged an attack, but it still landed. So, either I'm lagging, or something's still amiss when it comes to hit boxes or whatever.

I can't shake the urge to tank, DD, or heal will not go away amongst players, especially when confronted with more difficult mobs. Differences in gear and set abilities will likely result in having someone taking hits being more favorable than another person, just as someone else will do better damage because of a certain build.

[Imitarate]

You're arguing different things. There is no "tank class" or "healer class" you have to wait for to start a group. You just grab some competent people and go. The emphasis seems to be on player skill and group dynamics rather than what you chose at the character creation select screen -- pre-mades/statics are going to be pretty awesome.

Completely aside from that, those who haven't looked into racial skills may want to. You get a few alternatives in some skill categories that could shore up a weakness in the class you picked, which is good for PvE and WvW. While I'm not a huge fan of turrets from engineer, I used Seed Turret on my sylvari guardian and found it mad useful for a distraction (and some extra damage), and I've never really liked the default guardian heal skill options, so I ran with the healing seed -- also really rather liked it, as a guardian. But I wouldn't use that seed on Necromancer; Well of Blood looks better in most every way -- it's upgradable through traits, creates a combo field, and might actually heal more. So there are some interesting class/race synergies to be found.

[Rhyis.]

If everyone is tanking and everyone is healing, then doesn't that kinda defeat the entire purpose of the term Tank and healer? I mean in reality then there is no tank or healer. Sharing hate means that there really is no tank, don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from also. I just would not call it tanking at all. The entire idea of a Tank is someone to hold hate and have the mob focus its damage on that person, so others can dmg and support, when everyone is sharing that hate whats the use of even using the term tank?

You know that in normal MMO raiding that there are almost always more than a single tank and healer, right? Tank swapping is already a normal raiding experience. Are those classes no longer tanking/healing because they share the role with somebody else? Tanking is simply the act of holding threat for a undetermined amount of time on who the hell knows how many monsters. Healing, the act of keeping your party alive long enough to down the monsters. That's it.

How is this even a conversation?

[Takiwaki]

You're arguing different things. There is no "tank class" or "healer class" you have to wait for to start a group. You just grab some competent people and go. The emphasis seems to be on player skill and group dynamics rather than what you chose at the character creation select screen -- pre-mades/statics are going to be pretty awesome.

Completely aside from that, those who haven't looked into racial skills may want to. You get a few alternatives in some skill categories that could shore up a weakness in the class you picked, which is good for PvE and WvW. While I'm not a huge fan of turrets from engineer, I used Seed Turret on my sylvari guardian and found it mad useful for a distraction (and some extra damage), and I've never really liked the default guardian heal skill options, so I ran with the healing seed -- also really rather liked it, as a guardian. But I wouldn't use that seed on Necromancer; Well of Blood looks better in most every way -- it's upgradable through traits, creates a combo field, and might actually heal more. So there are some interesting class/race synergies to be found.

Yup everything is very situational, but whats great is that you are not locked into anything, in terms of available skills to be used.

[arus2001]

I don't doubt statics will be more successful, sure, but you're still gonna have people leaning toward certain things they "visualize" their characters being. Like when I was dabbling with my warrior, I was focusing trait points in STR and then Crit Damage+ (since I guess they either had the level 20 books disabled or there was a step I was missing). Why? I just wanted to hurt shit more. Meanwhile, someone thinking themselves more tanky would dump them into VIT and who knows what else, probably favoring a shield as a secondary if that winds up meaning much. I guess at some point someone can eventually have all things learned/grinded out, but that's not gonna be the case early on.

[Takiwaki]

You know that in normal MMO raiding that there are almost always more than a single tank and healer, right? Tank swapping is already a normal raiding experience. Are those classes no longer tanking/healing because they share the role with somebody else? Tanking is simply the act of holding threat for a undetermined amount of time on who the hell knows how many monsters. Healing, the act of keeping your party alive long enough to down the monsters. That's it.

Yes I know but its still a defined role that no matter if there is 3 people tanking, this is what they are doing, tanking. They are not all of a sudden changing to a healer in the middle of a fight. I do not see what the argument is about lol. The classes that are no longer tanking in your example are still basically Tanks, they cannot all of a sudden take up another role. The main point is that if everyone in the entire raid can tank heal and dd as you say, then there is no tank healer and dd, I mean seriously in that instance, how exactly would the set up be, when there is no designation to a tank or healer. Also in GW2 where there is no way to control enmity, or quickly healbomb an ally that is about the die the mechanics are not even there.

We just have two different outlooks, if that way of looking at things works for you then great, as long as the nature of the game comes off correctly to you.

[niwaar]

It's just easier to explain it by saying everybody shares all three roles of tanking/healing/dpsing than saying nobody tanks or heals, because that simply isn't true. You will be healing your teammates and you will have mobs focus on you.

I disagree but only semantically. I would more say that Anet has removed one trinity only to create another. Gone are the Tanks and the Healers and in their place we have been given Control and Support. Yes, everyone can actually provide some or both, but not always and not to as large a degree as others. The continual need to use those terms diminishes the learning curve required. Its very easy to say everyone tanks and heals, but does that lend itself to a "I'm responsible for myself" attitude? Some will take it as such. Yet if you speak of everyone being control and support then you understand the realities of GW2 dungeon combat design. The game wants you to support each other and control the mob through proper movement and skill usage. Not rely on others to face tank things and get heals from others.

Back to the video though. I will just come out and say it, Shafnit has never been an altogether impressive player in any game that he has "reported" on. He proves his ignorance of GW2 game mechanics when he complains that he keeps dying when he runs into traps and complains about getting "aggro". The entire video just went to show me that he is no more than an internet talking head that does not know his ass from third base. There are many problems with the video, but even if the inherent flaws of the concept and execution of the video and its gameplay footage are ignored, you can not ignore his complete lack of understanding of the underlying idea of where damage comes from. After all, he can say that it was his and 3 of the other 4 players first time in the instance, but he got to level 30. He should understand the "red circle is bad" mechanic, as well as the "spikes from ground = trap and not the boss turning towards me and shooting me in the face" mechanic.

[Rhyis.]

Its very easy to say everyone tanks and heals, but does that lend itself to a "I'm responsible for myself" attitude? Some will take it as such.

Logically it should taken as everybody is responsible for the entire party, since a tank and healers job in the holy trinity archtype is to be responsible for keeping the party alive.

On the flip side if you tell people that nobody heals or tanks and that everybody is only DPS, like they said in that video, that's when people will do exactly what you just said. Only worry about themselves. Because a DPSs job in the traditional MMO is to only be responsible for ones self by DPSing and not standing in shit. Which makes for a bad teammate. I wouldn't party with that guy.

[Arelian]

I just find myself cautious of the inherent advantages ranged classes would have over melee. Being in range will naturally put you at more risk for taking damage, while also giving less time to respond to a mob's attention shift. I'm also cautious about latency, since there were some times in BWE3 where I felt like I should've dodged an attack, but it still landed. So, either I'm lagging, or something's still amiss when it comes to hit boxes or whatever.

I can't shake the urge to tank, DD, or heal will not go away amongst players, especially when confronted with more difficult mobs. Differences in gear and set abilities will likely result in having someone taking hits being more favorable than another person, just as someone else will do better damage because of a certain build.

The only class that has issues at long-range is Guardian. Every other class has very, very viable options for being at ranged. Not to mention ranged weapons/abilities do quite a bit less damage compared to melee and I feel like Melee vs Ranged is pretty "balanced."

There are "tanking," "dps," and "healing" builds in GW2. It's why some trait lines give bonuses to toughness, vitality, precision, etc. Those traits are meant to make you take hits better/DPS better/heal better, etc. The biggest thing is what Imitarate mentioned, and it's that there is no "set" healer, tank, or DPS class.

Let's look at BWE3, for example. I traited my guardian to be more about taking hits/supporting the group. In Ascalonian Catacombs, I could "tank" mobs for a decent while longer than my buddy who was playing a purely "dps" traited ranger buddy. They certainly did break the idea of holy trinity in GW2, but it's much more subtle than some people are making it out to be. If you wanna tank, you can! You won't be taking every single hit, but you can trait yourself to take more hits than anyone else in the group and by keeping yourself in range of the mobs, you'll stay high on their threat list.

I don't doubt statics will be more successful, sure, but you're still gonna have people leaning toward certain things they "visualize" their characters being. Like when I was dabbling with my warrior, I was focusing trait points in STR and then Crit Damage+ (since I guess they either had the level 20 books disabled or there was a step I was missing). Why? I just wanted to hurt shit more. Meanwhile, someone thinking themselves more tanky would dump them into VIT and who knows what else, probably favoring a shield as a secondary if that winds up meaning much. I guess at some point someone can eventually have all things learned/grinded out, but that's not gonna be the case early on.

To address some of these points:
1) You cannot get a higher tier skillbook until level 40. It's ANet's way of forcing you to try out different trait lines. It could be clearer in-game, however.
2) You can't really have everything learned aside from skills. The traits are what really define your "build" moreso than the skills you have (since at level 80 I, personally, am going to assume you have every skill unlocked for your profession.) You have to spend a respec fee if you want to change where your trait points are, so that decision is going to stick with you in a dungeon scenario.

[Takiwaki]

Logically it should taken as everybody is responsible for the entire party, since a tank and healers job in the holy trinity archtype is to be responsible for keeping the party alive.

On the flip side if you tell people that nobody heals or tanks and that everybody is only DPS, like they said in that video, that's when people will do exactly what you just said. Only worry about themselves. Because a DPSs job in the traditional MMO is to only be responsible for ones self by DPSing and not standing in shit. Which makes for a bad teammate. I wouldn't party with that guy.

Exactly this ^

This is exactly why I am trying to stray from using the traditional mmo terms Rhyis.

[Rhyis.]

I just said the exact same thing I said 2 posts ago. Literally. Exactly the same. And you said it was wrong lol.

[Takiwaki]

I just said the exact same thing I said 2 posts ago. Literally. Exactly the same. And you said it was wrong lol.

No I was saying that the terminology can be interpreted wrongly lol. using the term tank dd and healer has a tendency towards defined roles which doesn't really exist in GW2. Sorry if you didn't get what i meant =/. I guess to me Its not really tanking if everyone is sharing the role, not just a couple people but everyone. I just don't think holding a mob for a few = tanking, when you will have to gtfo at some point always, and there is no way to "pull hate"