Guild Wars 2: Pre-Release Discussion

[Takiwaki]

Event system: as far as I have seen they are actually catering to people who like to just run out and explore and come upon events, as well as people who like to run to an npc to figure out whats going on, they call it the "scout system" .Being that they events are persistent and do change whats going on like towns will stay overrun till we decide to remove the threat, stuff like that gives incentive, of course the main mission quest line will lead you to other areas etc. Also way points for fast map travel must be unlocked. so you will have to run to these areas.

Trinity system abandonment: yes you can't actually do more than one thing at a time, but you can change what you are doing at anytime. that's the thing that is hard to get, in the middle of battle you have skills that allow for control dmg and support. plus weapon swapping which can drastically change your skillset. This allows for anyone to take up the role as support controller and dmg at anytime. the thing is the way its set up is that there is such a synergy among the play style is that there is very little effort involved in working together. Also the thing is you just cant have a tank, you really cannot target and bomb heal someone you cant even target players. you can have someone up front but that person will need to keep moving, dodging etc. so anyone can actually take up the role as the person who has hate at anytime.

Stats: There are numbers tied to stats dont worry. Its just not something that will define elite gear as opposed to regular gear.

[Isiolia]

I don't think stats count as immersion at all. I think having a person fall in love with every minute detail of what it is that makes their character "theirs" constitutes immersion, and even moreso when that immersion can be spread across to the actual game environment, not simply the character.

It's not so much that. Point is more that GW1 (at least) sees players spending a lot more time and effort on making their character look how they want. Nearly any item's stats can be duplicated via other means.

To a point, this is in line with what you're talking about - there's a real focus in GW1 about having a low bar for entry. About focusing on smart builds and skillful play over needing stats to be effective.

However

That leaves said appearance tweaks as the things to grind for - which is certainly the case in GW1. I'm not disagreeing with the "just go out and do shit" mentality being nice. I've been playing GW1, and quite liking that aspect of it. Point is more that, if I did really care about my character wearing certain armor sets, having certain costume pieces, etc, I'd really need to work towards them. I don't really consider that "immersion", I think of it more as giving players something to work at despite keeping the playing field as level as possible.

If they're allowing for freely recoloring pieces, then that's a nice improvement - sure beats buying dye for every piece you want different.

[Zerocool]

I think that they said events wouldn't show on the map. That you'd actually have to go out and explore and find them. But that if something was going on around you that you would be able to easily notice it just by either the visuals like seeing a town on fire, or by an NPC running up to you and saying hey our town is under attack, help us. They're not really meant to string you along a path as they said they didn't want people following a linear path of progression. Also that other than your class story, they don't have any traditional quests. So that's going to be the only way to really level up in PvE aside from maybe dungeons. So that's a big part of the motivation to find them and participate in them.

For the combat it's hard to say really. If we think about everything they've told us so far, like aggro is based solely on the closer person to them. That there will be no direct heals in the game, only aoe heals and ground target heals that people will be able to walk into to heal up. That players will need to actively dodge and roll out of the way to avoid attacks. And that every class will be able to resurrect other players. Just from those things alone, combat is going to be a lot more dynamic than your standard MMO trinity system where you have one guy up front tanking the whole time while a healer stands back and spam heals the guy and dps just stand there mashing their 1 key. The way they describe it is that it's not going to be enough for one person doing one specific thing the whole time. That everyone will have to contribute equally. People will really have to pay attention to what's going on in-game, think on their feet, and react accordingly. Obviously you will still need tanking and healing. But I think it won't be as static as most MMOs and will be a lot more dynamic.

[Lucavi]

lol awesome, you sure you wouldnt rather go to a counter pick up a couple quests, then go to an outpost to activate said quest, then run for 5 minutes to get to said mobs that needs killing, then run another minute as one runs away, then have to go back to the outpost to activate one of the quests that you already took at the counter and repeat?

No thank you, sir. That sounds like XIV, and I am not interested in the entire course of my MMO journey to be directed by a nameless NPC shuffling endlessly behind a counter in a "tavern" somewhere.

@Isiolia : Every MMO has to have something to "grind" for, and Guild Wars will be no different. I'm not even talking about the act of grinding anything. Whether its grinding stats (on gear) or good looks (on gear) or server-wide acclaim (on gear) or even specialty features and benefits (on gear and through perks), grinding is grinding and that's never going to change. I'm more concerned about the act of immersion; being wrapped up in the world that you're running around in, and not so much some mystical feeling that you aren't playing a game at all! You're always going to know you're playing a game so long as you hear the beeps and boops from vent and the clicks from your mouse and keyboard.

I'm worrying less about grinding (because its going to happen) and more about "how fluid is this game?" Case in point: XI is not fluid. At all. It was fairly immersive back in the day when it was the newest thing on the market; I remember the good times running around through the dunes, giving raises to poor n00bs that got skulled by ghosts and sitting on my chocobo like a boss, but the game is not fluid. XIV is terribly un-fluid. Its as stiff and clunky as it comes, and you never feel like you're actually "in there" as opposed to sliding across a 3D graphical floor with rocks and grass around you. Kinda like fallout 3 but with less brown and grey (but not much less - looking at you, Thanlan!).

Can I jump off a cliff into a dive and plunge into the water to escape a few crazy adds that decided to join into my fight with their Gnoll buddy? Once I hit that water, will I think that everything is in the clear or will I then be attacked by some huge fish underwater that I then have to fend off? Once defeating that fish, can I take some time to admire how beautiful the world looks under the sea? Can I then emerge from the water and hit the shore, then have some NPC run up to me and ask me for help before sallying off to a village in need?

That, to me, is immersion. Those are the kinds of things I am thinking about when I think of what immersion should be in a modern-age game. I already know in the front of my head and the back that grinding in some way is going to be there, because it'll always be there to stretch out a game and to keep people playing longer. There's no point in even worrying about it unless it becomes a painful experience. But there are a lot less obvious features of the game that I want to know about that can actually be added or subtracted from the game - I might as well focus on those.

[Takiwaki]

I was poking fun at 14, was not ment to be taken serious.


"Can I jump off a cliff into a dive and plunge into the water to escape a few crazy adds that decided to join into my fight with their Gnoll buddy? Once I hit that water, will I think that everything is in the clear or will I then be attacked by some huge fish underwater that I then have to fend off? Once defeating that fish, can I take some time to admire how beautiful the world looks under the sea? Can I then emerge from the water and hit the shore, then have some NPC run up to me and ask me for help before sallying off to a village in need?"

^ this is exactly what gw2 is attempting to bring and so far succeeding.

also take a look at the end of this video as the dev doing this demo tries to flee the pirates and gets owned as they followed him into the water. was pretty awesome to see. Simple stuff like that, mobs having different abilities on land that in water, awesome.

the very first time I saw this I was holy shit, they followed him into the water! they can swim!

[Zerocool]

I think a big thing that will help this games longevity is the Wvs.Wvs.W PvP. They haven't released a whole lot of info on it yet, but what they have said sounds awesome. There will be stuff for one to two people to do like escort quests, or you can run with the big group to siege castles and stuff. You can play either way and still contribute to your server. I think it will also go a long way in building a strong community on each server.

[Dantrag]

720P youtube going slow as shit for anyone else?

[Katlan]

Theres still a bunch of stuff that I'm concerned about regarding GW2 though and some of its systems, like for instance whats going to be the drive to go find all these dynamic events going on? Are you just going to find it via exploration or is the story going to drag you out to a zone and from there you go exploring until you run into something? Theres a lot of preaching from them about running into stuff but whats the drive to do that other than just going looking for it? It seems like you'll just open your map and go towards whatever events you see are running around you. I guess the story could string a lot of this together, but only to a certain extent.

from what I saw in the low-mid lv content (was a lv 29), it just kinda flows. You see a town and run up to it and you can see stuff happening. You kill a random spider egg and get a quest to kill 10 more. Just by looking around you get stuff to do. Granted an event isn't always taking place, but by hanging around a place, exploring, killing random things on the ground or picking up an object, your going to find stuff and it flows in a linear'ness fashion where you get led along, but it smore open world then go to point a, b, c, d, ect...

[Takiwaki]

yea its kinda like you don't have to get quests, quests get you.

[Alderaan]

I think a big thing that will help this games longevity is the Wvs.Wvs.W PvP.

I simply cannot state how brilliant this is. Anet managed to create PVP with 3 factions, which everyone agrees is the best way to go, but without splitting up the races.

[Isiolia]

That[/B], to me, is immersion. Those are the kinds of things I am thinking about when I think of what immersion should be in a modern-age game. I already know in the front of my head and the back that grinding in some way is going to be there, because it'll always be there to stretch out a game and to keep people playing longer. There's no point in even worrying about it unless it becomes a painful experience. But there are a lot less obvious features of the game that I want to know about that can actually be added or subtracted from the game - I might as well focus on those.

Not really disagreeing on all that for the immersion thing. It was more that it was brought up within the context of the wide selection of armor dyes that prompted the comment - dunno 'bout you, but if I'm running from adds, diving into water, dynamically adjusting my strategy...the color of my armor is kind of the last thing on my mind.
As an ability to define "you"? Sure. More chance that you'll have a unique look. Like I said, nothing wrong at all with having the capability. If that's all it took for immersive play though, Second Life would be known for more than furries.

[Lucavi]

Agreed 100%. It takes a hell of a lot more than a simple dye system, but also ask yourself: what other MMORPG on the market has/will have a better dye system than what we're seeing here? I thought Rift's was nice (and it is), but this blows Rift clear out of the water.

You add enough little touches of immersion to a game and before you know it, you have a truly immersive product.

[Alderaan]

Individuality, gear wise, is what MMO's are lacking hardcore. I absolutely can't stand everyone having the exact same looking gear. Rift, even with the dye system, fails at this.

[Isiolia]

Agreed 100%. It takes a hell of a lot more than a simple dye system, but also ask yourself: what other MMORPG on the market has/will have a better dye system than what we're seeing here? I thought Rift's was nice (and it is), but this blows Rift clear out of the water.

You add enough little touches of immersion to a game and before you know it, you have a truly immersive product.

True, but I looked at it in context of GW1 due to that the little customization you start with - which is a nice touch - is not followed up on quite as simply. In that, you can set the colors of your starting armor. When you replace it, you need to buy/acquire dye (not expensive, but still) in order to maintain that simple choice you made for free earlier.

GW2 does look to be an improvement on that, at least for dyes. Perhaps it's out of necessity though, if they're not differentiating class armor as much.

[Lucavi]

I think you're focusing too much on dyes. GW1 was a pretty limiting game in terms of the environment and whatnot. GW2 looks completely different, and almost different from most else of what we've seen today. I actually want to spend a LOT of time in GW2, just from what I've seen. Whether its swimming underwater or just chilling in my own personal city hub, I want to spend time in the game, not just doing things in the game. I haven't felt that way since XI with my 5/5 AF2 and eventual 5/5 Barone/Conte (second with the full set on my server!) Dragoon and in WoW when I finally got my Chopper and just spent my free time rolling across the countryside (I still have yet to play a game that has given me more of such a simple sense of satisfaction than WoW with the chopper - I literally feel the same driving my 2011 Camaro 2SS in the real world - and without the $40,000 price tag).

We'll have plenty of time to complain about what isn't in GW2 when we know more about what will 100% not be in there. I'd rather, for once, spend my time drooling over what we know will be in there.

Yeah, I can't believe I said it either, but that's literally how much I'm looking forward to just existing in the world of GW2. Not having to pay a monthly fee just makes it stupid.

[Alderaan]

I'm really looking forward to the game world, it just looks amazing.

[Zerocool]

Yeah, I think not having to pay a monthly fee will help in the "stop to smell the roses" department. Since you're not paying for your time, you don't always feel like you HAVE to be doing something to get your money's worth. Not that 15/mo that other MMOs charge is a lot of money, but it's more of a principal thing. As for the dye thing, I can understand that there are some people who probably couldn't care less. But then there are some people that will probably spend hours just going through the color palette and customizing their gear. Also when you add in that you'll have the ability to reskin your armor as well. So you'll be able to wear any piece of gear in your weight class, then be able to dye 3 different areas on each piece of gear from a 400 color palette. I can't even begin to calculate the possibilities.

[Vimes]

I actually want to spend a LOT of time in GW2, just from what I've seen. Whether its swimming underwater or just chilling in my own personal city hub, I want to spend time in the game, not just doing things in the game.

So true. For me, it's also the sense of just exploring the world for the sake of it. Finding cool places etc. Haven't done that since XI. Secret Beach etc (when it was still "secret" lol). Spent so much time not doing really anything in that game, just going to a quiet place with friends, sitting there. Was awesome.

GW1 just doesn't scratch that itch. Started playing it 5 months ago and I've logged over 400 hours, finished all campaigns, it's a pretty solid game and has some amazing environments but it's just not the same since it's not an MMO.

[Colenzo]

watching these videos makes me wanna cry, sweet cherry pie

[Takiwaki]

2 long gameplay videos of thf and war from SDCC