Guild Wars 2: Pre-Release Discussion

[Elrina]

The keyword there was "slightly higher value of cash shop stuff".

Like, say the cash shop has a variety of basic services and cosmetic items. Looking at the GW shop right now, I see a bunch of costumes for $6.99/each, and some basic services that range from $10~15.

One example of what I'm suggesting would be to allow one use of any basic service per month + 1 costume of choice for $13-15/month. The basic idea being, you don't get any kind of advantage or anything you couldn't get from the cash shop anyway, but by being willing to pay an optional sub fee you pay a flat monthly rate and receive a value from the cash shop that slightly exceeds that. There are ways that could even be encouraged, by offering subs a 3 day advance on new cash shop items, etc.

Nothing that would change the game, offer any actual advantage, or prevent anyone from playing it for free and deciding what and when they wanted to purchase something in the cash shop. Just an optional method of offering regular support, while receiving a minor discount/additional value from the cash shop in exchange.

[Man0warr]

Non fluff/cosmetic stuff, like EXP bonus scrolls.

[Katlan]

They said they won't do non-fluff stuff. They don't intent for cash shop stuff to provide an in-game benefit

[Takiwaki]

This goes against what anet is trying to do in the first place. I see what you are trying to say but, no subs is what anet is about. the services that they offer are not something that you will want to buy every day or every week, there are no exp buffs or stat buffs etc.

Things like character slots or make over kits from gw1 will def make it in, but why will I pay monthly for something I wont use regularly enough?

I do not think you can think of gw or gw2 as a cash shop run game, if you look at gw1 shop how much items are there really? not much and def not enough to warrant a membership system.

the point is they do not want a sub option at all, this in fact creates the mindset of expecting constant updates cus you are paying for it every month.

Just like the release date they will surely drop update stuff when they think its good and ready. subscription models in any form is not good for this type of development. GW still has free content coming in regularly. Just yesterday new quest lines were added.

Anet is already proving that the no subs model works. Even allowing a choice of subs goes against this, as people that sub will definitely expect something (advantage) over the non subbers.

[Takiwaki]

Nice interview

[Elrina]

Just like you've said, Guild Wars 2 =/= Guild Wars 1. The model is similar, but the games are not, and with how ambitious they're being, I can't imagine they don't have just as ambitious plans for it post-release. I fully expect that the GW2 shop will contain far more than the one currently available for GW1, despite being fully cosmetic.

For instance, the way Blizzard sells in-game pets and mounts for WoW, that's one example of additional things they could add. There are a large variety of ways they could implement purely cosmetic/vanity items into the shop to generate additional revenue (which will be necessary if they get a large population boom) that would encourage people to want to spend money on it. And with the amount of interest, size of GW2, change in presentation, I would be extremely surprised if the shop for it isn't significantly larger than for GW1.

I also can't imagine they won't be updating and patching the game consistently, with how ambitious this project is. I realize they're against the necessity of subscription fees. They never had one for GW1, and they've been quite vocal about not requiring one for GW2. But there is a vast difference between one being necessary and required, and one being completely optional.

A sub fee, even an optional one, that offered advance access to new cash shop items (especially if it contains more than it did for GW1), offers access to services that normally required a payment, possibly solid discounts on the large content patches. I could imagine a lot of things they could do with it, and offers they could grant with it, that would be completely optional and not harm their stance on not requiring a subscription to play the game at all.

Also, Anet has proven that the no sub model can work, but they haven't even remotely proven that it can continue to work with a massive population. The scope of GW2 is far, far more than GW1, and it would be silly to believe the cost isn't far greater as well. If they get a population boom when it releases, 1-2m+ people (possibly a lot more, because if it's as good as it seems, there is going to be a completely ridiculous amount of interest considering the lack of a sub requirement and the current waning interest in WoW, so each month over the first year could see significant population spikes), I'm not so sure it will still hold up as readily.

The numbers just don't seem to scale well, and what I'm talking about is just some kind of optional steady income that could possibly offer people a discount on services, cosmetic items and large content at the same time.

[Man0warr]

GW2 looks to be closer to an open world MMO than GW1 was (which is closer to modern day Asian MMOs like Vindictus/Dragon Nest).

I wonder if that will require more hardware/infrastructure, which would drive up their operating cost.

I don't see why they don't have a sub fee this time around, except just to be different.

[vrumpt]

If there was any actual use for a subscription fee every video game made these days would require one, because they all have online components or multiplayer support. Think about how many people play games online on PC or consoles, now think about the number of people who play any single MMO with a subscription fee. Who's getting ripped off?

[Takiwaki]

I get what you are saying, but anet already have said no sub, I just dont get why people are scared that this means that they wont get paid? or wont have steady income? It really does not work like that.

Also the subscription type you are referring is in fact creating bonuses and advantage for players that do. otherwise why would players choose it in the first place? creating this choice in itself is already going against the very foundation anet is establishing with the game.

If it really was a question of server infrastructure, then every online FPS, or server based game should have subs?

In the most recent ncsoft meeting the cost of maintenance for online games is actually the lowest cost on the budget, in fact its so low it was filed under misc with a number of other costs. The real cost has always been development, which is easily repaid in sales.

[Eanae]

Gw2 will have non-fluff cash shop items I can guarantee it. Gw1 already does. How are you going to call packs that unlock every skill and item on your account or give you extra slots of storage for outrageous prices non-fluff? They'll pull the same shit with gw2 and it's sad they will.

[Dragir]

Details, details...


Gamasutra Exclusive: Guild Wars 2 Fights The Subscription Racket
by Phill Cameron, September 29, 2011

[Gamasutra contributor Phill Cameron examines Guild Wars 2's subscription-free model, as ArenaNet lead content designer flatly asks, "If you're paying a monthly fee for a game, what are you getting for your money?"]

ArenaNet's Guild Wars 2 doesn't require a subscription. I didn't realize the significance of that fact until I finally got my hands on the game. It seems like a nice big bonus for players that takes off some of the pressure that other MMOs exert down upon you. Instead, there's a much more impressive revelation couched in that little fact.

So far, MMOs have kind of been wasting your time.

You've got the almighty grind. Hours upon hours killing meaningless mobs to make a bar slowly tick upwards, and see your wallet grow ever fatter. You've got the endless trudging from location to location, nominally a way for them to attach the carrot of mounts to a stick protruding out of your back, but really just a way to tick off another ten minutes of your time. You've got the zen-like trance that you slip into while waiting for a battleground, waiting for a group, waiting for crafting to tick over, waiting, waiting, waiting...

MMOs have been wasting your time, because, quite literally, time is money. If you didn't have all these little, cumulative time sinks, you might get bored. You might even, (gasp), cancel your subscription. So your time is wasted, just enough for you not to really mind, but enough to keep the spread of content thin enough to last to the end of the month.

Gosh, that sounds awfully cynical. But the wool has been lifted from my eyes, and I have seen the true face of the massively multiplayer. Somehow, it's all ok, though, because I've also seen the alternative.

Guild Wars 2 doesn't waste your time.

The fundamentals of how it works seem starkly obvious, in many ways, and the cynic in me is thinking that the reason they haven't been implemented before is because they subvert the time sinks.

Take the Holy Trinity. Tank, Healer, DPS (damage per second). It's becoming increasingly clear that the 'Holy' is there because to mess with it would be sacrilege. Guild Wars 2 does away with it, because, to quote Colin Johanson, lead content designer at NCsoft-owned Guild Wars studio ArenaNet: "The Holy Trinity, in a lot of ways, prevents you from playing with other people, because you spend a lot of time waiting for other players before you can play the game."

It just makes sense. Why should I have to spend my time waiting half an hour for a tank, when I'm an elementalist with a firm grasp over the power of earth? I can just cake myself in rock, and bingo, I'm a tank. People are versatile. They adapt. Fixing them in place seems redundant.

"From day one we already knew we weren't going to charge a subscription fee, and that's informed our game," Johanson said.

It's the same fundamental approach that ArenaNet took with the similarly subscription-free original Guild Wars from 2005. That series -- which sold a reported 7 million units total -- relied primarily upon the sales of regularly-released, standalone installments to the franchise, rather than subscriptions.

That makes it sound like this is the franchise bucking the trend, allowing a business decision to dictate how the studio going to go about their design. However, the impression is that this is almost a liberation, that suddenly they're not bound by how things have been. Building an MMO with a subscription in mind must be difficult, to say the least.

"MMOs have gotten away with it for all these years, and I think the question you have to ask is, if you're paying a monthly fee for a game, what are you getting for your money? If you're getting enough content and enough great service to make up for it, then fantastic. But if you're not, you need to ask why you're paying a monthly fee."

Which could make it sound like Johanson is almost placing a safety net for Guild Wars 2, but it seems more like they're using it to raise the watermark, show players that here is what you can get without a subscription fee. So what are you getting with one?

"The market is going to go where all the major games are going. If Guild Wars 2 is extremely successful, you're going to see other games going without a monthly fee." Which would almost imply that this has been a racket, all along. What, exactly, have we been paying for? Servers?

Apparently, not. "There's an incorrect belief out there that it's more expensive server-wise to run a giant open world game than it is to run an instanced game such as Guild Wars." There's a confidence about Johanson when he talks about the way MMOs are, an assured-ness that's almost akin to an investigative journalist blowing open some great story.

"The server bandwidth now is getting reasonably inexpensive enough that you don't need to charge a fee for online games," he explained. "We made plenty of profit off Guild Wars 1, and that's what we're going to do with Guild Wars 2."

From playing the game, I can't see if there's a con to going without a subscription fee. There are no obnoxious ads popping up telling me to buy an experience boost or some other game-altering bonus. There are no closed off areas with a price tag informing me that for a small fee I can have access to all that extra content. Of course, Guild Wars 2 isn't a free to play game, but the difference in price of just one full retail copy (which subscription MMOs still charge for) to a continued subscription is phenomenal.

It's easy to become somewhat indignant after realizing quite how much the minute to minute of previous MMOs have been dictated by their payment model. Easier still to resent them, but at the same time it's worth bearing in mind that it's only recently that the internet has become quite so fast. Perhaps subscriptions really were necessary five or so years ago, when we didn't have fiber-optics veining the first world. That was then, though. Right now, things are different. We don't have to stand for the subscription model saturating our online experience, and we certainly don't have to pay for it.

Comments?

[Thulius]

Think about how many people play games online on PC or consoles, now think about the number of people who play any single MMO with a subscription fee.

That's an unfair comparison because most developers don't provide many (if any) servers for their own games. Consoles rarely even use dedicated servers at all. Obviously the subscription fees for your average MMO are way higher than they need to be to support said servers but it's still ludicrous to say they serve no purpose at all.

[Zerocool]

I see some people are confusing F2P and B2P. GW2 technically isn't F2P. Everyone is still going to have to drop 50-60 dollars on the box. But with that game not having a sub fee, that lends itself to potentially sell more boxes than your typical sub fee MMO. More people will be inclined to buy it since they know they can buy the box and play it for free, forever. Also, people might be more inclined to drop some money into the cash shop since they figure they're not having to pay a sub fee.

Also another thing they said, was that they basically feel having a sub fee allows developers to be lazy and update and put out content at their own pace since they know either way they're getting that 15 a month. Having no sub fee means that the devs will have to put out content that's fun and interesting if they want people to pay for it. So they're more likely to add content that players want rather than content they want the players to have, like other MMOs.

[Dragir]

Gw2 will have non-fluff cash shop items I can guarantee it. Gw1 already does. How are you going to call packs that unlock every skill and item on your account or give you extra slots of storage for outrageous prices non-fluff? They'll pull the same shit with gw2 and it's sad they will.

Skill unlock packs may not be what you think they are. They make skills available to your heroes, but not to you. For that, you'd need to buy or farm for Tomes. That's a considerably more expensive way of obtaining skills than getting them in-game the normal way. Hardly an advantage, but certainly a convenience for those with more dollars than sense.

As far as Xunlai storage goes, "if you need it, you buy it." I've never needed 'em and I've never bought 'em... but that's me. I take care of my inventory space. That aside, you also have seven other character slots if one has purchased all three games (4+2+2) to create mules if you need more space. Just how much does one player need?

Everyone is still going to have to drop 50-60 dollars on the box.

Personally, I'll be dropping whatever is asked for a Collector's Edition purely out of interest in supporting the company. Good peoplez deserve my money.

[Eanae]

The skills unlock for your pvp characters which is why it unlocks it for your heroes.

[Isiolia]

The more common complaint I've seen for GW1 paid items are Mercenaries, due to them allowing for hero setups you couldn't do with the standard set of heroes. At least as far as PvE is concerned. 'course, they do have the added requirement of leveling a character to 20 (not that it's hard, just that there is a requirement beyond $$$).

I haven't really felt like I -needed- anything from the cash shop in GW1 though. Some of it might be nice, but it still comes across as a luxury.

[Man0warr]

If there was any actual use for a subscription fee every video game made these days would require one, because they all have online components or multiplayer support. Think about how many people play games online on PC or consoles, now think about the number of people who play any single MMO with a subscription fee. Who's getting ripped off?

Not all or even most online games these days have dedicated servers - they are mostly Peer 2 Peer. Even some of the big FPS games don't have dedicated server support anymore.

[Takiwaki]

Gw2 will have non-fluff cash shop items I can guarantee it. Gw1 already does. How are you going to call packs that unlock every skill and item on your account or give you extra slots of storage for outrageous prices non-fluff? They'll pull the same shit with gw2 and it's sad they will.

Extra storage is fluff to me, and well the unlock packs are pvp only. For pve you will still need a tome correct?

edit wow beaten by a mile lol

[notorious bum]

I'm convinced. GW2 devs are simply gamers like me who could give a shit less about the old MMO formula and its slow, monotonous climb that equates to a giant pissing contest at endgame for nerds to show off their e-dicks instead of having fun.

[Takiwaki]

cool article on Eurogamer about the MMO showing

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10...mer-expo-2011/

second page. . .