Dust 514

[Cantih]

I don't think they should nerf Logi, but I am aware that it is very tempting for me to spec into them for my combat suits.

With the length of time firefights last in this build, I think armor repair modules will be in the meta, and the Logi bonus, armor repair skill bonus (and Amarr suit bonus, and Gallente 5 low slots), mean MASSIVE self repair amounts, and armor repair is constant, no shield delay.

Personally, I think they got the logi and assault backwards. As is, logi have low shield delay and armor repair, assault has shield recharge with a moderate delay. The armor repair should go on the assault, shield recharge should go on the logi. OR to actually make it perform as well as armor repair, assaults should swap the shield delay with logis, and the suit bonus should be changed from shield recharge to shield delay.

They do need to make a base frame type-II suit that is a semi-logi though.

EDIT: Also, https://forums.dust514.com/default.a...00&find=unread expect something resembling a proper reponse in the next day or two.

[Sol-Blackguy]

They're trying to take away my Light Weapon! They fucking nerfed my mass driver and now they want to outright take it away! FFFFFF

[Sol-Blackguy]

No wonder Dust 514 is so fucked up. This is how the majority of the community thinks!

Okay since we are sharing common development ideas here are some for EVE PVP

1.No autopilot
2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained
3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less
4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC
5. Get rid of mid slots
6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max.


After all this is how its done in Dust. /sarcasm

For those unable to get the point, there are plenty of EVE players that would simply flip out and either a tell me to HTFU or STFU and quit trying to change their game.

Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it.

Point 3 is the most pervasive, the fact im arguing with people who think RNG in shooters are an acceptable gameplay mechanic is just double facepalm worthy.

Not everything should be up for debate; its like arguing with climate change deniers who say well the jury's out since a few scientists disagree []

[Cantih]

Keyser is a troll, mock him relentlessly.
You're doing good work putting the fire to Wolf though.

[Sol-Blackguy]

Keyser is a troll, mock him relentlessly.
You're doing good work putting the fire to Wolf though.

Yeah, I think he finally got banned for that thread. It was locked by a mod and he just reposted. What bothers me is almost half of our players think like him and want this game to go back to CoD 514, where the stats and fittings don't matter because 4 shots from a Duvolle will still kill you. I had a proto logi with 750 HP and died just as fast as an assault frontline starter fit. Didn't have enough SP to get my proto again but I have 350 HP on my Sever and you can feel that 350. But all the CoDers want it to go back to before. Hope CCP doesn't listen to them because they're all going to leave anyway when CoD: Ghost comes out in November.

I like IWS. Out of all the CPM, he's the most vocal. But that idea he suggested sucked. It's obvious he doesn't play the class and is going on that old concept photo of the Minmatar logi dual wielding SMGs. Even if the mass driver is nerfed to hell, I still need it. It's the only weapon I have because I maxed the damn things proficiency. They just need to either go with your suggestion, lower the CPU/PG on the suit but give them a fitting efficiency bonus for equipment or buff the other suits to surpass it. I'm totally blaming this on Remnant. I bet this is his dev hacked logi suit line he put in on accident and the real balanced ones are somewhere in his office.

Edit: Dude was hemorrhaging information like it was nobody's business. Not sure if they're coming soon™ or soon, but tackling, nosferatu, target painting and jamming?! Everything is starting to make more sense as to why most of the logi suits have the crazy slot allocation. Hell, they can have my sidearm, just give me an aoe webifier that works on tanks and infantry and a nosferatu to drain stamina and vehicle capacitor. (when they're added in) That'd be a hell of a one-two debuff punch on all the ASSaults running around.

[Sol-Blackguy]

Posting the following info on upcoming changes to weapon damage and HMG balance on behalf of CCP Rement since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.

Tl;dr version:
• In the next hot-fix weapons will all get a 10% damage increase to compensate for the removal of the Weaponry skill bonus.
• HMG damage buffed to 18 HP (including aforementioned 10% increase) and given a 5% dispersion buff.
• In the near future, we will address range issues by removing the hard stop that currently takes place at maximum weapon range.

In Chromosome, the Weaponry skill gave an across the board 2% damage bonus to handheld weapons per level. Given the low SP cost of the skill (and the fact that it’s a pre-req for every weapon in the game) the majority of players would just skill straight to level 5 making the skill pretty pointless. So, in Uprising we removed the skill bonus. The side effect of this, of course, is that time-to-kill has increased.

This, combined with some of the control issues we’ve been seeing, has led to combat feeling worse than it did in Chromosome. We will address this with a hot-fix that gives an across the board 10% increase to all handheld weapon damage to put DPS back to where it was. Additionally, we’ve increased HMG damage and reduced the dispersion penalty when moving by 5% to address issues with the weapon.

The removal of the Sharpshooter skill (which gave bonuses to range) has also highlighted some issues with range in general. Weapon classes need unique range profiles. I doubt anyone would dispute that. And the sharpshooter skill was pushing far too many weapons beyond their intended engagement ranges. While it’s removal has caused some issues, the SS skill was a crutch and it hid more deep-seated problems with range in the game. It will not be coming back.

Right now, all weapons have an optimal and maximum range. Unfortunately, at its max range the weapon simply stops doing damage. This is bad for a whole host of reasons and we’ll be addressing this with a point release in the near future by giving all weapons an optimal, effective and absolute range. Up to the optimal range weapons will do 100% damage (shield/armor profiles notwithstanding) and then drop off slowly towards their effective range. From effective range out to the absolute range damage will drop noticeably but weapons will still do incidental damage even at extreme ranges.

Hope they know what they're doing with the 10% damage increase. I was actually liking the less twitch, more strafe style of play. Still need to beef up the mass driver's radius and give the old trajectory back. I know this sounds weird, but I'm getting too many kills with it when I should be herding.

[Cantih]

It should be fine. Lots of people seem to be rocking the Amarr Medium, which has more HP, the passive shield HP skill is easier to get, and the shield extender and armor plate skills now boost he modules HP amount. EHP is basically up this build.

That said, if they unthinkingly give the charge sniper a 10% boost to it's raw damage, it's going to be nearly 330 damage. With my 3 mod advanced Minmatar suit, and 4/5, one shot is back baby. (Though, hit boxes seem to be a little off, I swear shots that are good are doing nada, but I'm pulling 8-12 like I used to again so I'll stay quiet, though the 30/0 days are gone with sharpshooter and draw distance. I even found the new primo sniper nests, except for that new 4 point map, boy it's weird.)

[Sol-Blackguy]

It should be fine. Lots of people seem to be rocking the Amarr Medium, which has more HP, the passive shield HP skill is easier to get, and the shield extender and armor plate skills now boost he modules HP amount. EHP is basically up this build.

That said, if they unthinkingly give the charge sniper a 10% boost to it's raw damage, it's going to be nearly 330 damage. With my 3 mod advanced Minmatar suit, and 4/5, one shot is back baby. (Though, hit boxes seem to be a little off, I swear shots that are good are doing nada, but I'm pulling 8-12 like I used to again so I'll stay quiet, though the 30/0 days are gone with sharpshooter and draw distance. I even found the new primo sniper nests, except for that new 4 point map, boy it's weird.)

Yeah, I got a sniper from my corp who had some trouble, but he's beginning to adapt. Hit detection is sill a bit wonky, but in some ways better than before. If you haven't seen Nod Keras's sniper videos, look them up. A lot of his kills in Chrome looked like they shouldn't have been because of how he trained himself to compensate for hit box latency.

[Sol-Blackguy]

Okay, serious sign that Dust 514 is fucked up right now, Keyser is making valid points. On the topic of nerfing the logi:

Absolutely nothing. The logi isnt the problem. The logi is a specialty suit that has no basic frame,

Watch this dev diary.



Granted its not current to what the current build is. But its shows you that its not the logi suit thats the issue but the other suits not really doing what they should be.

Dont incentivize ppl into assault suits by making logis less desirable. Make assaults more desirable(scouts and heavies ppl dont go into like they do into logi, otherwise id say buff them too).


But the reality is logi are meant to be very versatile, what makes them so good is there isnt a better rock or scissor in place to keep them in check.



Oh and just so im clear.


Logi-MD last build rocking triage and gauged nanohives, with REs or injector. With multiple variants including a hack fit, a tank fit and a heavy support fit.


This build

Gallente Logi, with multiple equipment variation fittings.

Fact is everyone uses those highs and lows to create tank/gank fits. Create a better assualt class that can out DPS, out tank and/or out move the logi and ppl stop trying to use the logi as an assualt.

As for the myopic logis who play the role as equipment ***** have no imagination whatsoever. I use logis to create hack fits, equipment fits, defensive fits, antivehicle fits etc etc etc. And without those modules its next to impossible to create them. If anything removing the caldari logi role bonus of +5% efficacy to shield extenders instead for something more logi related would instantly keep the caldari logi in check.

The logi is meant to be the most versatile of the suits. But what limits them is their movement speed(which is fine as is, the other suits need to be faster) and their ability to tankup their suits.

The caldari logi is the ONLY suit id ever say needs a bit of a tweak and even then 5 high 4 low and 3 equipment is a fair trade. Its still 12 slots like all the logis, its just the way its set makes it more of an offensive logi. Thats cause caldari in general are offensive. The assualt suits need to be better in comparison. Its really not rocket science.

/thread.

[Sol-Blackguy]

It should be fine. Lots of people seem to be rocking the Amarr Medium, which has more HP, the passive shield HP skill is easier to get, and the shield extender and armor plate skills now boost he modules HP amount. EHP is basically up this build.

That said, if they unthinkingly give the charge sniper a 10% boost to it's raw damage, it's going to be nearly 330 damage. With my 3 mod advanced Minmatar suit, and 4/5, one shot is back baby. (Though, hit boxes seem to be a little off, I swear shots that are good are doing nada, but I'm pulling 8-12 like I used to again so I'll stay quiet, though the 30/0 days are gone with sharpshooter and draw distance. I even found the new primo sniper nests, except for that new 4 point map, boy it's weird.)

Cantih, I don't want to tell you I told you so, but I told you so:

Hey Guys just a heads up.

It has been brought to the CPM's attention that there are concerns over the Tactical Assault Rifle. After some discussing the CPM believes that its best for the community to describe the nature of the Tactical Assault Rifle and we would really like to hear from all of you on the weapon.

This includes both Operators of Tactical Assault Rifle and the Targets of Tactical Assault Rifle.

So leave your thoughts from any point of view on the weapon we will check back on it.

The purpose of this is not to talk balance but to give feedback to CCP in a compact easy to find place before CCP gets the chance to do anything to it. Research if you will. So comment about what you think of the rifle honest from your point of view, and focus on what you really think of it and far less about trying to balance it. You should also include all environmental concerns involving the gun such as bad aiming, uprising woes and control issues that may be a factor in this gun sticking out too far verses most other weapons.

If you need to, include outside variables such as other ARs, suits, weapons, or scenarios involving the TAR.

I was using it on my assault alt and the TAR's damage was perfectly fine and recoil was manageable to counter modded controllers and mice. Now after that blanket 10% damage boost, it's a damn semi auto tactical sniper rifle with an extended magazine. Outside of nerfing the thing to hell again, someone brought up a very good point.

I've never been quiet on my dislike of the Tac AR, but it fills a niche that many people love - the marksman. It's no sniper rifle, but it's able to take out reds at a great distance. The problem with the Tac AR is that it is still freaking amazing at CQC, and any failings that it might have are easily covered by making another fit with the same tier of the AR as it is governed by the exact same skill.

There is no trade off to skilling up the AR. You'll have a guaranteed great weapon at all ranges for the price of one skill. No other weapon is able to do that, and makes choices in what you want to do that much more limited.

This problem is then compounded by the Gallente Assault suit, which lets you fit high tier weapons without sacrificing any tank or damage output. This suit also is an armor tanker which is strong against lasers, the only weapon that can compete with the Tac AR for dealing damage at that range.

This puts all those small little advantages in the hands of the Tac AR, coming together to form the new OP (I hate that term too. please keep reading) weapon.

There does need to be a weapon to fill that role, It just shouldn't be in that skill tree.

My recommended course of action would be just to take the Tac AR out of the game. No nerfs to the point of being unplayable, just freaking nuke it and replace it with a new sniper rifle variant with a 25 round magazine and a decent rate of fire while extending the range slightly on the Gallente AR, ideally it's optimal should end where the LR starts. (possibly meaning bringing the LR's optimal in a little bit. but that's another thread)

This would accomplish a few things, namely it would give sniper rifle users the role of the designated marksman again. I can count on one hand how many times I've been shot by a sniper, let alone killed this build. Throw them a bone FFS. Less weapon diversity is the last thing this game needs.

secondly, it would balance out the roles of the various suits a little better. a low capacity weapon would put the Caldari assault in the running for owning the mid-long range game again with the suit specialty (reload bonus, for the uninformed), while letting the laser keep up with that role as it would be able to burn through Caldari shields (though the new variant would outrange the LR by a 10-20 meters), letting the designated marksman decide whether or not to close in and have a weapon that is still formidable in cqc though it doesn't fill that role as well as the AR or HMG.

As far as skill bonuses go, the new variant would still get helped by the sniper rifle op bonus of reduced sway as the rail rifle would have have to get settled in for a moment to balance having a longer range.

TL;DR
The TAR is a Caldari Gauss Rifle of another name.

[Sol-Blackguy]

What the hell has IWS's jimmies rustled over the entire logi class to keep pushing the sidearm only issue when the CaLogi is the issue? Was he molested by a logi as a kid? It's getting to the point that he's embarrassing himself:

Wait wait back up a bit.

People complained on how squishy logis where in chomosome, and now that its fixed in uprising you possibly want to nerf it (back) ?

Let's spell it out again for you: The entire logistics class, except for the Caldari Logistics is fine. The problem is the Caldari suit doesn't have a support related bonus compared to the others. Even the Amarr, which is supposed to be a pseudo Assault/Logi does it right because the Amarr assult still has advantages over it.

I'm vocal, and being black makes me a minority. Will you start listening to me?

and I keep saying the problem will become more apparent once the scrambler rifle makes it in.

Then let the meta game run it's course. Absolutism based on your own personal magic crystal ball that sees into the future isn't helping your argument. You got several people siding with IMPS against you on this and now Nova Knife is backing us:

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf. []

Don't worry.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I see the rest of the CPM pushing for balance specific balance changes beyond drawing attention to things that are obviously broken. This is not something we are suited for and in every situation it's better to point CCP to threads on the subjects than to simply say "Sup CCP, make this stat X cause we are CPM"


That's not what the CPM is there for, and it's not what we're going to do. Balance is best left to people who actually understand the concept of fair and objective use... Which is not the case for most of the CPM.

If a nerf comes it's because the community was spamming about it and that's all we had to link to CCP. Just sayin'

I respect you a lot as a CPM member and believe you're ideas on translating integral elements of EVE Online like EWAR, speed tanking, (Minmatar Scout with stacked catylizers) and tackling into Dust 514 are just as important as the feedback we all give. But the feedback we're all giving you is telling you that you're wrong this time. Save some dignity as a CPM member and help us find a better solution that doesn't play to goading on this nerf witch hunt. The meta game needs to occur in the game and not on these goddamned forums.

[Sol-Blackguy]

PC is a mess of lag and terrible design, aiming is horrible, invisible walls, imbalanced weapons, ninja nerfs, matchmaking not being a priority, I can't take it anymore. What the hell was the point of 2 years of beta if they're going to keep trying to fix things that aren't broken and pay more attention to how a female scout's cleave looks under dynamic lighting over core gameplay issues? Good thing Dust is free because no nobody should pay a penny for the state it's in right now.

[6souls]

While DUST 514, the console based MMO/FPS set in the Eve Online universe, is continuing to receive changes from CCP to its skill system based on feedback from players, some players are not happy with the effects the changes are having on their chosen skills. To help things run more smoothly CCP is offering players a chance to request one free respec.

Players are able to request a respec by emailing the CCP support team with any key information.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/05/23/free...t-514-players/
http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/05...-limited-time/

[Brill Weave]

What the hell was the point of 2 years of beta if they're going to keep trying to fix things that aren't broken and pay more attention to how a female scout's cleave looks under dynamic lighting over core gameplay issues?

OPERATING AS INTENDED!

[Sol-Blackguy]

OPERATING AS INTENDED!

She probably has one bigger than yours!

[Brill Weave]

What are you trying to say?!

[Sol-Blackguy]

What are you trying to say?!

It's a trap! Lol

[Sol-Blackguy]

Hey Brill, are you still playing? I rarely see you on. Hell, I've never seen you on when I'm on. I got kind of a static group going with 3 of my corp buddies and could always use people to fill our squad. If I see you on, I'll try to shoot you an invite or something. We're not tryhards, but we work as a team and win or lose, we put up a good fight and play to have fun. Our whole corp is pretty much like that for the most part.

[Sol-Blackguy]

I don't even give a fuck if I get banned... again. I needed to say my peace:

Once the desynch issues are fixed, could you please just revert the MD back to how it was in Chromosome? There was absolutely nothing wrong with the weapon. It was balanced enough for players good with it to stand out and had a huge learning curve for anyone who would think it was an "I win button."

The thing is, both those issues were also present in Chromosome. With the old values and these problems fixed I think we might have a monster on our hands []

That's why we'll be conducting tests to see what kind of impact the fixes have on the weapons performance before we make a decision on any changes.

CCP Wolfman

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call bull*** on what you just said on the grounds of this.

To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance.

One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon.

I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now).

That underlined portion openly states that you guys took a weapon that was perfectly fine outside of flawed coding and decided to nerf it on the grounds of what went on in your little playtests over actual player feedback. I've already said this before in just about every MMORPG game I've played: there's a designed purpose for a game mechanic and then there's the practical use that gets applied. Whatever you guys were doing with the MD should have no affect on how we, the players discovered the practical use. Instead of taking joy in the fact that we found a cool way to use a designed game mechanic, you gave it an unwarranted re-purpose that almost every other weapon in the game can fill better.

I've been a customer of CCP for 5 years and I can confidently say that while your company's intentions are good, your methods can be questionable at times. For every Titan that gets a much needed repurpose, a battleship loses it's purpose as an effective counter to a cruiser class vessel. You guys already went through this with the HMG and it took a threadnaught by the majority of the heavy community to see the error of your ways. Both the HMG and MD are similar in this aspect because you guys made a bunch of sweeping changes for some crazy reason and without any concern to our feedback. The only difference is the heavies got to see it coming, we had to find out on the 6th. Hell, I didn't even realize the changes until I got on here that same day because it wasn't in the patch notes.

I've been a part of this nerf/buff merry go round we've been on for so long, that I've grown jaded by any hopes of a significant change in quality of play. I started as an AR assault, and because of the nerf witch hunt that's makes forum warrioring part of the meta game, I ended up as a logibro with a MD. My weapon got nerfed to the level of a potato launcher, and my suit is probably next thanks to CPM members QQing about the entire logistics class, even though their base stats are completely horrible compared to the other suits and the other racial suit bonuses could need some work. What makes it funny is I'm a Minmatar logi, which has remained unchanged since the E3 build.

You guys have the audacity to make these huge sweeping changes, turning a deaf ear to feedback and now you want to play it safe after the fact? Really? You got an AR on the loose, that literally stops people from wanting to play because it's an exploit and you're worried about a grenade launcher that's supposed to act like a grenade launcher. At this point, I don't know if I should be laughing or looking for another game to play it this point.

And to add insult to injury, the standard Flaylock out damages the Freedom MD and don't even get me started on Fused Locus Grenades...

[Brill Weave]

Hey Brill, are you still playing? I rarely see you on. Hell, I've never seen you on when I'm on. I got kind of a static group going with 3 of my corp buddies and could always use people to fill our squad. If I see you on, I'll try to shoot you an invite or something. We're not tryhards, but we work as a team and win or lose, we put up a good fight and play to have fun. Our whole corp is pretty much like that for the most part.

I'll give it a shot. Just haven't played at all recently. Was doing league play in Blops II.