bomb Iran?

[Qalbert]

Leif,
In my spare time, I like to read novels based on a fictional universe of warhammer 40k. In that fictional setting humanity is in a perpetual war against itself and from forces outside. It's stories are made even more vivid and attractive because of the anti-heroes, the space marines, genetically modified humans bred and grown for war, their brotherhood, patriotism and faith are highlighted and stressed by skilled authors. These books never fail to enthrall me, because here their are, few exceptional men who stand to protect humanity from unspeakable horrors and unmeasurable odds. It's attractive to human psyche. But it's fantasy.

It's fantasy, Leif.


Do you understand?

SPACE WOLVES

[alt]

The only problem i had with alt's post was the cannard about Israel being the only democracy and everyone around it wanting to destroy it; how someone can have a clear understanding of the US's intentions but absorb propaganda so easily is beyond me.

I didn't say I necessarily agreed with that stand point. However it is an important point for many policy makers. I personally do not believe that any western nation should arbitrarily support another democracy simply because its a democracy as well.

However one feels on the issue, it is a fact that Israel is a representative democratic republic like the U.S. and most other democracies in the world today. And it is surrounded by other nations/groups that either do not view it as legitimate or outright hate it.

edit*
I suppose my second point depends on whether you view Israel as a legitimate nation state. If you don't then I guess the point is moot and we move into an entirely different argument. Although if you do not view Israel as a legitimate state your views are contrary to the United Nations...

[Leif]

It's fantasy, Leif.


Do you understand?

No.

[Kuya]

I didn't say I necessarily agreed with that stand point. However it is an important point for many policy makers. I personally do not believe that any western nation should arbitrarily support another democracy simply because its a democracy as well.

However one feels on the issue, it is a fact that Israel is a representative democratic republic like the U.S. and most other democracies in the world today. And it is surrounded by other nations/groups that either do not view it as legitimate or outright hate it.

edit*
I suppose my second point depends on whether you view Israel as a legitimate nation state. If you don't then I guess the point is moot and we move into an entirely different argument. Although if you do not view Israel as a legitimate state your views are contrary to the United Nations...

Israel has formal democratic structures, so does Iran, and so does Turkey. Unfortunately, having formal democracy does not stop a State from behaving like a fascist one. Particularly Israel's second class citizens (the arabs). Turkey is allied with the US, but the US is not allied with Iran, and both have little to do with whether they're democracies or have democratic structures or not, otherwise, the US wouldn't be in bed with Egypt or Saudi Arabia. The argument about democracies in the Middle East is mere rhetorical weaponry.

[Elvis]

I didn't say I necessarily agreed with that stand point. However it is an important point for many policy makers. I personally do not believe that any western nation should arbitrarily support another democracy simply because its a democracy as well.

However one feels on the issue, it is a fact that Israel is a representative democratic republic like the U.S. and most other democracies in the world today. And it is surrounded by other nations/groups that either do not view it as legitimate or outright hate it.

'Surround by' is not simply a factual statement - but a form of emotional blackmail. It's like when Zionists say Israel is just 'a tiny strip of desert' - it's meant to present Israel, the Jewish State, as a perpetual victim-State. 'Surrounded by' hordes of barbarians. Israel is then, the 'beacon' of Western democracy. An open-society! That's why people always parrot the 'only democracy in the ME' line. It's not to present a fact (it's not even a fact, it's incorrect) but to present a NARRATIVE.

Something people can build their careers around. Something people can latch on to, because I think most Americans prefer emotional 'truths' to facts.

See, I doubt you know much about the history of Israel and it's founding. Yet, you felt confident enough to post that hasbara BS. I'm not an expert either, but I know enough about 1948 and at the least, what books to use to counter the false but mainstream account of the 'War of Independence'.

Egypt and Jordan are in a peace treaty w/ Israel. Both are run by family dictatorships. Egypt has no king, but it might as well. Both are complicit in Israeli crimes and in the Occupation. Egypt is assisting in the Gaza siege. Egypt is also bound by the terms of their treaty w/ Israel to sell Israel oil (I think). So their are military and economic ties between the two.

I mean, there is not one honest Arab leader in the ME. All of them are propped up by the US and are part of the strategy of full-spectrum dominance of that region. It's the same divide-and-conquer strategy all throughout history.

Israel is not fighting STATES. Israel is not fighting COUNTRIES. Israel is fighting non-State actors. Hamas, Hezbollah mainly. Iran is a regional power and is playing the same kinds of games the US and Israel play against Iran - albeit to a much lesser extent since it's much weaker.

As to 'hating' Israel? If I were a Palestinian (nationalistic identity) - I would hate Israel most likely. I already do pretty much, and I'm an American of Indian descent. It's not like Israel is the epitome of evil - it isn't.

It's more like, being presented with a completely different picture and history in the mainstream, and then reading the actual history sourced from declassified IDF documents (mostly from the 1980s; see - 'The New Historians'). So it's not enough that, if I were to listen to the most liberal people on US television (Rachel Whatsherface and Keith O and Jon Stewart) that my picture of the I-P conflict would range from completely wrong (Rachel) to a false paradigm of parity (Jon Stewart) - but that this narrative is still reinforced over and over despite the occasional Zionist massacres that take place in present-day (Gaza 2008 ).

Here's some snippets from Benny Morris's Israel's Border Wars:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...nnymorris1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...nymorris-2.jpg

I've never once seen this perspective in the MSM. And if it was ever there, it was by a guest during a point in time, when such a perspective could be presented. In Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent - he mentions, that usually when there is a massacres/etc. there is an opening for the 'other' perspective.

Like for instance, there were some opportunities during Gaza to hear the Palestinian side of the story. It happens much more often in Europe. Not so much here, where it matters.

edit*
I suppose my second point depends on whether you view Israel as a legitimate nation state. If you don't then I guess the point is moot and we move into an entirely different argument. Although if you do not view Israel as a legitimate state your views are contrary to the United Nations...

States are political entities. They have no inherent and arbitrary 'right to exist'. That concept is a bit of emotional blackmail that afaik has only been used rhetorically (but not to trivialize it's power) in this conflict. Quite obviously, the Zionist lobby in our country would keep framing this conflict as 'the Jews vs. people who hate them'.

Israel would not exist as a Jewish State without the ethnic cleansing of Historic Palestine. The end. People aren't going to forget that.

Your argument is literally superficial - I mean, Lebanon is a democracy. So is Egypt lol.

So CLEARLY the only reason you're bringing up that Israel is 'the only democracy in the ME' is because you've heard that line parroted so often, you think it actually means something. Israel is a colonial-settler State in the 21st century. It is not a State for it's citizens. It's a 'Jewish' State. A Jew from Brooklyn can go settle in Israel. A Palestinian whose family was driven out in 1948, can never return.

If the Jewish State ceased to exist as a political entity, Jews would still exist. It's entire foundation is on changing the nature of what a 'Jewish people' constitutes.

So no, I don't think it has a 'right' to exist - I don't think most States do. I think it DOES exist and that it's a political reality. Powerful States such as Israel don't disappear easily, so it's not a realistic goal to wish it to go away. I just want the Occupation to end, and the Palestinians to be given equal rights both inside Israel (where they are treated as 2nd class citizens) and in the OT (where they are treated like animals).

EDIT:

Yea of course it's mere 'rhetorical weaponry' to say 'Israel is the only democracy in the ME surrounded by countries who hate it' - of course.

The US is a democracy. It was a democracy during the era of slavery. It was a democracy during segregation and during the Civil Rights Movement.

What a joke.

And speaking of jokes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln4vSV3KlOM

There's a new slogan for you alt.

[Rhinox]

I'm an Equal opportunity anti-Semite. Hate both arabs and jews

[wipers]

All you need to know about this is that it is coming from Ron Paul. End of discussion.

Edit: I mean that in a good way.

[Correction]

Some people are just stupid.

Indeed

[guartz]

No.

Father of neo-conservatism said it more specifically; that any nation needs noble lies //myths// to endure.

[guartz]

SPACE WOLVES

fuck ya son, Ragnar will rip yo shit up.

[test123]

it is a fact that Israel is a representative democratic republic like the U.S. and most other democracies in the world today.

Israel bans Arab parties from running in upcoming elections:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html


also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edhtdoPukk0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxvxMGq3Ck0

It appears that everyone with a jewish ancestor 1000 years ago can now take Palestinian land and build a house...

But then again who is a jew? DNA suggests that the palestinian people are more "jewish" then those who live in israel now, in terms of DNA resemblance.

here is a funny Yahoo quote:

Most of the Jews in Israel are Khazar Jews, AshkeNAZI Jews. The real Middle East Jews, the Sephardic Jews are secondclass citizens in Israel. They are the Semitic Jews not the Khazars. The Zionist Jews are AshkeNAZI, Khazar Jews therefore they are not Semitic people. The use of the word "anti-semetic" a tool created by the zionist ADL is fraudulent and used as a weapon of all who oppose or question Zionism or the Zionist state's(Israel) wrong doings. The only true semites are ARABS and Sephardim Jews. Khazaria is situated in Eastern Europe where even AshkeNAZI "Jewish" historians can trace their lineage to. There is no link to "Israel" whatsoever. The AshkeNAZI/ Khazar "Jew" is a 7th century convert to Judaism.

[Elvis]

Hey alt, I have some deep spiritual connection to your apartment. Over 9000 years ago, my ancestoers, the Pastafarians were expelled by the Klingon Empire. Condemned to walk to Earth as wet noodles in the wind, we were exiled.

To deny my right to exist in your apartment is anti-Pastafarian.

Oh and

Associated Press - Israel harvested organs in '90s without permission

Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies, including Palestinians, without permission of their families.

This comes after (back in the summer):

CNN - Israel hits back over Swedish organ harvesting article

Israel on Sunday withheld the press credentials of a Swedish newspaper in retaliation for a controversial piece that suggested the Israeli army kidnapped and killed young Palestinians to harvest their organs.

The journalists need the credentials to report from Gaza.

"We have no duty to supply them with press cards immediately; (we) have 90 days to decide about their status," said Danny Siman, the head of the government press office.

The article, "Our sons are being stripped of their organs," appeared Tuesday in Aftonbladet and was an opinion piece written by freelance journalist Donald Bostrom.

Bostrom told CNN he had no proof that Israeli soldiers were stealing organs, and that the purpose of his piece was to call for an investigation into numerous claims in the 1990s that such activity was going on in the West Bank and Gaza.

Even though the Swedish embassy distanced itself from the report, the country's foreign ministry refused to condemn it -- saying Sweden has a "free press."

The refusal has rankled Israel, which said it will submit an official complaint.

"This is an anti-Semitic blood libel against the Jewish people and the Jewish state. The Swedish government cannot remain apathetic," said Israel's Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz.

Nothing is more anti-Semtic than Zionism. This guy immediately dragged in 'the Jewish people' meme to just because it's Israel. Why? Israel is a State. What does 'the Jewish people' have to do with it? Jews live all over the world and have a complex history in all the places they've lived in. It's only Zionists who both try to racialize Jewish identity and make it appear as a monolith connected to the 'Jewish State'.

Oh and organ harvesting isn't very democratic.

[Ferien]

As a Catholic, I demand a plot of land in the Vatican where I can build my new life.

[test123]

Hillary did not deny supporting the Bush doctrine in a recent hearing, and that reflects basically the obama administration viewpoint.

If israel pushes the US into a war with Iran preemption will be the most likely factor, as Iran will not be the aggressor.

[guartz]

ah the athiest in me smells blood.

Whats this talk about nations and legitimacy?

[Elvis]

Wow! I just saw this old interview. It's amazing what a fraud and liar the 'former military officer' is - I've actually seen him in other side-by-side interview/debates and he always throws a tantrum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qObUs21wl-8

I've yet to see this in the video MSM just yet:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...cRmUQD9CN62LO2

Extended excerpt:

Spoiler: show

The issue emerged with publication of an interview with the then-head of Israel's Abu Kabir forensic institute, Dr. Jehuda Hiss. The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge.

Parts of the interview were broadcast on Israel's Channel 2 TV over the weekend. In it, Hiss said, "We started to harvest corneas ... Whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."

The Channel 2 report said that in the 1990s, forensic specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

In a response to the TV report, the Israeli military confirmed that the practice took place. "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer," the military said in a statement quoted by Channel 2.

In the interview, Hiss described how his doctors would mask the removal of corneas from bodies. "We'd glue the eyelid shut," he said. "We wouldn't take corneas from families we knew would open the eyelids."

Many of the details in the interview first came to light in 2004, when Hiss was dismissed as head of the forensic institute because of irregularities over use of organs there. Israel's attorney general dropped criminal charges against him, and Hiss still works as chief pathologist at the institute. He had no comment on the TV report.

It would be nice to have all the people who cried about 'blood libel' (what is that?) be confronted w/ the new evidence.

The Israeli government/military says the practice of organ harvesting no longer continues but then again they've been caught using human shields still despite it being outlawed by their Supreme Court (because I think it was an official practice at one point).

BTW - to anyone in here that's been following the conflict since Gaza. A commentator at Mondoweiss made a good point:

In August, the Swedish newspaper and Sweden itself was publically exoriated for raising the issue of Israel harvesting organs from Palestinians. Accustations of ‘anti-semitism’ were levelled that effectively closed all debate and precluded any further investigation into the matter. Now it turns out there was a lot more truth behind the concerns raised by the Swedish paper. Significance? Notice how quickly the Goldstone Report was dismissed and buried using the same tactics.

Just as an example - google 'Goldstone Report'. The first link you'll get is from CAMERA, which is a right-wing Zionist advocacy group. In the US, I think our Congress passed a resolution that condemned the report as 'enabling terrorism' or something to that effect. Even Bill Moyers was sounding like an Israeli spokesperson if anyone saw his interview w/ Richard Goldstone (Jewish, citizen of Israel, said to be a Zionist by his daughter on Israeli army radio, and a famous SA Judge who struggled against apartheid and headed the Yugoslavia war crimes trial *I think*).

[Kuya]

You're fucking kidding me? Organ harvesting? Seriously?

[Elvis]

Are you denying them their right to harvest organs?

[Conformity]

Are you denying them their right to harvest organs?

Doing that would be anti-semetic ya know