Dynamis Jeuno - Vanguard Slimes

[thetruepandagod]

Replacing your extra BLMs with DD's will always be more efficient, stop making excuses.

Even when you don't have any support whatsoever for them? cool story bra, tell another

[Wrish]

And to the person saying "oh, Thorny only is against BLMs because he runs with ~12, HUR DURRRR" no, the reason he is against BLMs is because he is against inefficiency. Replacing your extra BLMs with DD's will always be more efficient, stop making excuses.

In practice, it's hard to make the efficiency argument. For example, if we start with {DNC COR BRD DD DD DD} + {RDM BLM}, an extra DD will have a hard time competing against an extra BLM... they're pretty much unbuffed and don't help you manage larger pulls (you still have to sac lots). If you have a 2nd BRD, you're comparing {rdm-brd-blm-dd} with {rdm-blm-blm-blm}. That's frequently the case when you bring in a large alliance. You run out of ideal support jobs, or if you don't, your run must be optimized into a two-pronged attack.

What if that DD is an Apocalypse wielding DRK or some other relic? Well I ask you, is that realistic? The lone DD is probably the one that sucks, because if all your DD rock that much, then you probably aren't doing dynamis for AF. How efficient is it to make money off dynamis? Not very.

The real answer is probably "it depends." That's because if every DD -> BLM replacement saps efficiency, then by logic a manaburn must be very inefficient compared to a melee burn, and we know in reality it is very comparable, always of course controlling for gear quality.

[Strai]

If your melee burning tav your doing it wrong.

Or maybe you haven't seen it done right.

[Shinryuu]

an extra DD will have a hard time competing against an extra BLM... they're pretty much unbuffed

Unbuffed 2H melee at least (in cities any melee) > BLM.

because if all your DD rock that much, then you probably aren't doing dynamis for AF.

Huh?

How efficient is it to make money off dynamis? Not very.

Huh?!

[Wrish]

Unbuffed 2H melee at least (in cities any melee) > BLM.

You may think that from a pure damage standpoint, but during any mess where the primary sleeper(s) are incapacitated or overwhelmed, nothing beats the ability of a BLM to freeze an entire crowd for 2 minutes+ with sleepga. The alternative is a partial or full wipe, or inefficient emergency kiting. Not being able to make ambitious pulls slows the whole group down. Added damage from an unbuffed vanilla DD is simply not lucrative enough to forgo this safety net.

"because if all your DD rock that much, then you probably aren't doing dynamis for AF. "

How many decked out/relic DD frequent your dynamis runs to lot AF? Probably not many. So your dyna shell members mostly either are awesome DD and work for money (inefficient to begin with), or they work to get AF for somewhat crappy DD jobs (so the unbuffed DDs you're replacing BLMs with are weak DDs).

You know your dyna shell better than I do; what I am saying is that in general, it is not safe to say that adding DD instead of BLMs makes for more efficient dynamis runs.

"How efficient is it to make money off dynamis? Not very. "

If you throw out all the AF, 100-200k net income for 3 hours of work plus preparation time does not count as efficient in my books... it's less than 50k an hour. Especially for a team with relic DDs, farm or hunt something and you'll probably make a lot more. I only mention this because the topic segued into efficiency. Which means if you're doing an efficient city run, you don't have top tier DDs, and they do not so easily trump BLMs.

[Thorny]

You may think that from a pure damage standpoint, but during any mess where the primary sleeper(s) are incapacitated or overwhelmed, nothing beats the ability of a BLM to freeze an entire crowd for 2 minutes+ with sleepga. The alternative is a partial or full wipe, or inefficient emergency kiting. Not being able to make ambitious pulls slows the whole group down. Added damage from an unbuffed vanilla DD is simply not lucrative enough to forgo this safety net.

"because if all your DD rock that much, then you probably aren't doing dynamis for AF. "

How many decked out/relic DD frequent your dynamis runs to lot AF? Probably not many. So your dyna shell members mostly either are awesome DD and work for money (inefficient to begin with), or they work to get AF for somewhat crappy DD jobs (so the unbuffed DDs you're replacing BLMs with are weak DDs).

You know your dyna shell better than I do; what I am saying is that in general, it is not safe to say that adding DD instead of BLMs makes for more efficient dynamis runs.

"How efficient is it to make money off dynamis? Not very. "

If you throw out all the AF, 100-200k net income for 3 hours of work plus preparation time does not count as efficient in my books... it's less than 50k an hour. Especially for a team with relic DDs, farm or hunt something and you'll probably make a lot more. I only mention this because the topic segued into efficiency. Which means if you're doing an efficient city run, you don't have top tier DDs, and they do not so easily trump BLMs.

Farming sandy is an easy 300k/person lowman.. 100k/hr is not that bad by most standards. That aside, if your entire linkshell is honestly capped on CoP accessories, useful -1s, and xarc drops.. i'm jealous, but I'm sure people can still take things to ding into and be happy with them.

As far as freezing mobs, never once did I say not to bring a BLM. I said multiple are a waste, which is a bit different than assuming you should run with 0 crowd control.

[NynJa]

How efficient is it to make money off dynamis? Not very.

Well, lets do the math:

Around 100-120 singles in xarc/CoP, ~200-250 singles in cities, highest run was a 600 something windy with 10, 4 100s.

Throw out 100's, because that's a basis of luck, its like a bonus on a paycheck. The only reliable constant is singles. I'll go with 250, assuming San d'Oria, my server street price is a retarded 16k each, we'll assume they're in for the full 3 1/2 hours, and there's 12 people without any 2box.

250 singles x 16,000g = 4,000,000g total / 12 = 333,333g each / 3.5 = 95,238 gil per hr
lower it to
200 singles x 16,000g = 3,200,000g total / 12 = 266,666g each / 3.5 = 76,190 gil per hr

It'll obv go up too if you get lucky with 100's, but you cant count on it. I've done a full sandy run, where I personally tagged every stat (th4), and got one 100.

I personally dont consider 95k/hr an astounding farming rate, considering that the only way you can achieve that is by busting your balls for 3 1/2 hours.

[Thorny]

Add utility value of any AF that isn't floored, basic economics require this. Obviously it won't be particularly high in cities, but I'd say RDM feet/RNG legs/SCH hands/SMN feet are a good 400-600k and BRD hat is 1-1.5m.. the better xarc AF are outright sold for upwards of 5m on a pretty regular basis, so their economic value is at least that if not greater.

Arguing against doing dynamis in general is just a poor attempt to derail even further.

[Wrish]

Well, you can't always do Sandoria (it may be taken), and you don't spend just the time inside, but require collective time to get there and change jobs. To top that, you forgot to subtract hourglass cost.

Surely, I'd wish for an efficient run with perfect TH4 and perfect DD and an always-open Sandoria. The reality is that dynamis farming is much less efficient than you calculated; I'm sure it's still good money for the average person especially when you count AFs, but not by any decked-out DD's standards. And that's why you don't see decked-out DD's filling dynamis shells.

I'm certainly not arguing against doing dynamis altogether. My point is that it's useless to set guidelines (on how many BLM to include) that presume optimal DD+support availability, because optimal teams just don't form often for dynamis. That means replacing all but one BLM with DD's often leads to more wipes, less full clears, and in general no more efficiency than having a party of BLMs.

[Thorny]

Well, you can't always do Sandoria (it may be taken), and you don't spend just the time inside, but require collective time to get there and change jobs. To top that, you forgot to subtract hourglass cost.

Surely, I'd wish for an efficient run with perfect TH4 and perfect DD and an always-open Sandoria. The reality is that dynamis farming is much less efficient than you calculated; I'm sure it's still good money for the average person especially when you count AFs, but not by any decked-out DD's standards.

Yes, because decked-out DD have no need for xarc AF for new jobs, accessories or -1s, or hydra gear for their bandwagon PLD(not to mention most shells aren't just stand-alone dynamis, I know mine isn't). I'm not sure how this turned into 'every DD who does dynamis is gimp as shit', but that certainly isn't the case.

[Andradi]

Isn't most DD AF2 retarded for most purposes?

There shouldn't be much relationship between how decked a DD is and if they do dynamis or not.

[Yugl]

Isn't most DD AF2 retarded for most purposes?

There shouldn't be much relationship between how decked a DD is and if they do dynamis or not.

You don't have to need DD AF to go DD to Dynamis. I could want SCH AF (Which is relatively new in relation to other AFs; thus, a reason to go back and do Dynamis) and go DRG for every Dynamis event.

[Andradi]

That was sort of my point, but maybe wasn't quite clear.

[Raek]

Or maybe you haven't seen it done right.

I dunno, I prefer clearing out almost the entire zone and averaging 20+ drops.

I've been on runs with good melee's... the kill count just doesn't keep up with a good manaburn group.

The only reason you should ever melee burn a zone is if you have under 16 members, going for frag/paper/DL run, or don't have good BLMs.

[Strai]

I dunno, I prefer clearing out almost the entire zone and averaging 20+ drops.

I've been on runs with good melee's... the kill count just doesn't keep up with a good manaburn group.

The only reason you should ever melee burn a zone is if you have under 16 members, going for frag/paper/DL run, or don't have good BLMs.

You bring a thf that sleepgas stuff for TH or how do you go about with that?

We seem to average about 15 pieces a run.

[Raek]

You bring a thf that sleepgas stuff for TH or how do you go about with that?

We seem to average about 15 pieces a run.

Yeah, basically good PT set up is:
3x blm, brd, cor, rdm
3x blm, brd, cor, rdm
3x blm, brd, cor, thf/blm

BLM's should be fully merited with Novio/Morri/Genie, relic brds and so on.

Kill eye's > tier4 any whm mobs > timed aga3 > timed sleepga/horde to land right after aga3 wave hits > repeat until everything is dead (usually 2-3 waves for most big pulls)

[Eldelphia]

Uh, I see COR in your signature. COR (if you don't suck, but seeing as you don't count it as a DD, I must assume you do) is an amazing DD, and can easily, in most situations, be near the top of a parse.

Actually I have /RNG, /WAR, melee tp/ranged tp/ws gear, bfg, martial gun, af+1, use steel bullets etc etc but I don't count it in the same league as a WAR/DRK/MNK and if you asked me which would do more damage I'd guess my BLM because currently COR not as well merited as my other jobs. Yes I could buff the hell out of any party (and happily would) but I don't count it as a pure DD and I don't think many other people do either. I enjoy the hell outta meriting on COR and surprising the crap outta peeps with my damage but in dynamis we have 2-3 COR and I am more use as BLM or RDM.

COR is capable of good DD, I agree but in dynamis my other jobs are more useful. The only reason I'm not WHM for dyna is because I lead the run.

[Raek]

This works for any zone, for example dynamis bubu you can have 1 pld/thf flee and round up each group of CoP mobs, have one sch/rdm graviga and another sch/drk be ready with stun-ga after aga3 wave hits.

This way you can clear out every CoP mobs in bubu with time to spare... except for the Uragnite's because those suck.

But even so, I have yet to see a melee burn group come close to killing every cop mob.

[TybudX]

...

There are lots of situations where a 'real' DD can maintain (near) capped attack vs. mobs, especially when you have BRD/DNC/RDM/COR all squashed together for buffs/debuffs. COR (and NIN, DNC, THF, etc.) all really shine as DDs under these conditions. I usually have no problems pumping out crazy damage on COR, but I'm a firm believer in quality > quantity.

edit - More relevant to the conversation, I was almost exclusively BLM onry for Dynamis for about 3 years. I joined a so-so LS that had way too many members, shit-tastic party set ups, little to no support, and some of the worst 'DDs' you have ever set eyes on... we did just as well with the core group of about 11 as we did with 64 (yes, sixty fucking four). I was two pulls into my first run when I realized exactly what I should be doing, which was making things stop. That LS went from having a bunch of BLM/RDM/BRDs 'sleeping' things to having just me. Can BLM do damage? Sure. My first macro palette has not a single elemental damage spell in it. I have Drain, Aspir, Stun, Bind, four Sleeps, and all my enfeebles within easy reach. I have a button that targets my BRD, so I can run 12' circles around them for three hours while I do my job. I don't bring hMP gear to Dynamis. I've broken the pearl's of people who won't cast Haste on me.

I'm going to say this once. You do not need more than one BLM to run CC. Unless you are limited by shitty job selection, taking 12 ppl with 2x merit set up (and BLM) is better than taking 18+ ppl with shit support... the only case you can make against this is (sometimes) manaburn, and only if they are really, really well geared/merited BLMs. It's a lot easier to take so-so DDs and buff the shite out of them than it is to take so-so BLMs.

[Tezz]

In regards to CC & Sleepers...

It's been standard that BLM are main sleepers in dynamis, but i'd like to add that, from my experience, a SCH who knows what they're doing is likely the best CC for dynamis, period.

2 attentive SCH's (or 1 SCH and any other CC backup) could handle all pull/sleeps for the majority of most dynamis zones. Stratagems are rarely down & tapping Alacrity, if you're interrupted, for a quick Sleepga 2 is a life saver.

This is my personal preference. It holds even more true for brand new LS's with BLMs who have shitty Enfeeb. Gravga/Bindga timed right before the crowd wakes or simply just reapplying a quick alacrity/manifest sleep 2 before they wake is very nice (and lazy).

In reality, not many ppl have it leveled, so that's usually the bummer.


GL though, anyone can be on Crowd Control really, just need a few attentive & decent geared players who know what they're doing for the most part.